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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Artillery -> re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
Post Info TOPIC: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
SASH155


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re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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 Peter: The cop is for "Whoa, hold on a bit here!" We just went through the entire go round on how to tell the two different 15cm slK i.R.L. (also commonly known as the 15cm sK i.R.[15cm schwere Kanone in Räderlafette]) apart! The small un-clickable photo in the top left hand corner is of an L/45, not an L/40. The top new side view photo is also an L/45 (look at the details previously discussed before, although admittedly I apparently was mistaken about this weapon having any top mounted recoil recuperator cylinders, as 28Juni indicated earlier); check out the length of the barrel in comparison with the three photos on the bottom which are of an L/40(I also measured the barrels with a ruler in the big B&W photo, using some dead reckonning, and concluded that indeed I was right). Note also the form of the steps in the barrel; the L/45 had three short ones of just ahead of the shield, that of the L/40 only had one long step like feature (see below). I found another photo of an L/45 (another frontal view) on the Bulgarian Army Museum's website.  You might want to revise the article on these guns in order to account for these two different versions, of which the shorter L/40 was the more common it seems.

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Wesley Thomas
Peter Kempf


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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Will correct! Thanks!!!

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SASH155


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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I took a another look at the middle photo on the bottom, and it is also the L/45 in the side view above it. The two stradling guns are L/40s. The barrel extention behind the shield is notably longer on the L/45, although the part of the barrel ahead of it looks approximately the same as the L/40 barrel (they both look somewhat stubby and poorly balanced from the rear; they are truly atrociously ugly guns, probably due to the Frankenstein's monster nature of their creation). Did you get my article by the by? 

-- Edited by SASH155 at 18:08, 2005-12-30

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Wesley Thomas
Peter Kempf


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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Great article, really impressive!!!


It's up and running now!


Many, many thanks for solving this old mystery!



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/Peter Kempf
SASH155


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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You are welcome, I am glad you think so highly of it. I love this stuff and have been studying it since I was @ seven or eight years old. Artillery is my first but not my only interest in this direction. I am also interested in small arms, armor etc... but so much has already been said about those two subjects that I have very little to add.

-- Edited by SASH155 at 03:49, 2006-01-01

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Wesley Thomas
SASH155


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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Hi everyone. It now seems that I really should have written SLK i.R. L/40 or L/45 instead of in the lowercase "slK", just as 28Juni pointed out earlier (Schnell Lade Kanone). If anyone here speaks fluent German, why are the adjectives sometimes capitalized (or is this particular Schnell used as a noun?), as here, and not elsewhere ie: sFH-13 (schwere Feld Haubitze M-1913)? Of course these much discussed guns, to confuse matters even further, were simply called 15cm SK (Schiffs Kanone) L/40 and L/45 when on board ship.     

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Wesley Thomas
SASH155


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 Now in reply to my previous posts I must point out that Franz Kosar indicates in his "Taschenbuch de Artillerie: Mittlere Feldgeschutze" that there indeed was a 15cm slK i.R.L. L/45, as well as the same, or at least a similar weapon mounted on a rail carriage (it seems to have had a top mounted recuperator or buffer cylinder), as well as on board barges (see the photos in one of the earlier threads). However I must concede that someone needs to go see these two guns together (at Varna?) and confirm my hunch by measuring them or by at least reading the markings on the breech rings etc... in order to definitively clear the confusion up(possibly mine alone) . I remain convinced that we have "affaire" of two entirely different pieces of ordnance (it is also possible that I have their identification completely ass-backwards, and have been mistaken all these years).

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James H


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SASH155 wrote:

why are the adjectives sometimes capitalized (or is this particular Schnell used as a noun?)
German is a sort of bolt-on language. If you need a complex word you click together the basic parts until you get what you're after. This can go on almost forever; for example, an aircraft taxiing curve is a Düsenflugzeugslandungsgeschwindigkeitsverringerungskurve. Admittedly, that one is normally just for amusement purposes. The brief explanation is this: the earliest examples of written German were translations from Latin, hand-written by monks, and they capitalised some nouns for emphasis. Then came the moveable- type press, which was soon used to print guess what? - Martin Luther's Bible, in great numbers. He carried on the custom of capitalising certain nouns, and the printers gradually took it upon themselves to capitalise all nouns. The habit became the norm in the 16th century. It's the only language that does it, and it was all just a fluke. Now, adjectives and prepositions aren't normally capitalised, unless they form part of a new compound noun. For example, unterseeisch is an adjective meaning undersea, but an Unterseeboot is a submarine, whereas ein unterseeisches Boot would be a boat that happens to be underwater. In the case of schnell, ein Schnellboot is a speedboat, but ein schnelles Boot is simply a fast boat. Another good example is sonder, a preposition that used to mean "without" but is now tacked onto the beginning of all sorts of words to mean exceptional, different, or special. The one most familiar to military modellers will be Sdkfz -Sonderkraftfahrzeug - a special-purpose-travel-thing. Ein Schnellfeuergeschütz is a quick-firer, and so on. All very complicated, as the Germans will admit; they're looking into it. It comes in handy if you want to distinguish between a maker of small sausages and a small maker of sausages. Alles klar?


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Centurion


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James H wrote:

It comes in handy if you want to distinguish between a maker of small sausages and a small maker of sausages. Alles klar?

But what happens if he is a hobbit who makes very tiny sausages?
 On an allied (or even a central powered) theme does anyone have any info on "official German"? This apparently was an attempt by the KuK to create an official language for the business of government, millitary matters etc that didn't offend all the differnt cultures of the empire. It apparently was German but not as she is spoken so that even natural German speakers had to learn it. (The EC may have to follow suit one day). There is a story of the crew of a KuK observation aircraft who came from different ends of the  dual monarchy  (Poland and Croatia) who ended up having to use Latin to communicate.



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James H


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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Centurion wrote: But what happens if he is a hobbit who makes very tiny sausages? It's all relative.

Just to clarify. Schnelladekanone can be written Slk, coz it's all one word - all the nouns except the first lose the capital when compounded. The nomenclature n/A means neuer Art (new type), where it's a straightforward case of an adj decribing a noun. In some cases, though, the Germans decided that the newness was part of the concept, so New Year is Neujahr, Neudruck is a reprint, and so on. The adjective meaning new-fangled is neuartig.

Eine schwere Feldhaubitze (sFh) is a field howitzer that is heavy; eine Schwerfeldhaubitze would be a howitzer for heavy fields. Am I making this worse? I'm beginning to get on my own nerves now. Add to this the fact that when you come across an adjective or the definite or indefinite article, depending on the gender, number, and case of the noun (or whether it's governed by a preposition which invokes the accusative, genitive, or dative - and some can change according to whether or not movement is implied!) you have to choose one of thirty-six possible adjective endings. There are also about 100 ways of pluralising a noun. They really are looking into ways of simplifying it.

does anyone have any info on "official German"? This apparently was an attempt by the KuK to create an official language for the business of government, millitary matters etc that didn't offend all the differnt cultures of the empire. It apparently was German but not as she is spoken so that even natural German speakers had to learn it. (The EC may have to follow suit one day). There is a story of the crew of a KuK observation aircraft who came from different ends of the  dual monarchy  (Poland and Croatia) who ended up having to use Latin to communicate.

That sound v. interesting. Haven't heard of that, but it would make sense to have a lingua franca. I suppose, if it's true, it would have been true Latin rather than Romansh. Even today there are German dialect speakers who genuinely can't understand each other, especially in Austria and Eastern Europe. They use Bavarian German to communicate. The language has become pluricentric. If you're interested, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_German  Don't even start me on Luxembourgish/Luxemburgish/Luxembourgian/Lëtzebuergesch/Luxembourgeois/
Luxemburgisch/Lussimbordjwès and its eight variations. By the way, they also capitalise nouns, because it's v close to German, but they call German "Prussian"!

The Arabs have a similar problem, so they use classical Arabic to get round it. The irony is that Europe once did have a common language. It was Latin, but it evolved into all the European languages (including Polish) and then died out. Some think English could go the same way - see The Story of English (written by three Scotsmen).
Sorry. Well off-topic.


-- Edited by James H at 03:08, 2007-03-19

-- Edited by James H at 03:16, 2007-03-19

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Centurion


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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James H wrote:

Sorry. Well off-topic.


-- Edited by James H at 03:08, 2007-03-19

-- Edited by James H at 03:16, 2007-03-19
But interesting. I once had to manage a team in the Middle East consisting of  English, Scots, Ulster, Canadian, American (Ohio and Colorado) and Indian personnel. The person who might have been said to have the "best" (in terms of grammar and clarity) English was the Indian who had been educated in a school often said to be "more British than the British" (and run by Irish monks!) We even had three different spell checkers on our laptops!

Getting back more on topic I do find that the German practice of having those vast chained names and then converting them to abbeviated initials does make life awkward when identifying equipment etc. I notice that in WW2 a lot of German stuff had short often single or at most double  word nicknames presumably to aid rapid communication ( Mobilewagon, Nashorn etc) did something similar apply in WW1?

I suppose that one shouldn't single out German when one sees today phrases like "Initiating EVA (Extra Vehicular Activity) used to mean "going outside"

BTW I believe Latin also divided into a classical version preserved in formal works, proclamations, laws etc and a vulgar version - much closer to modern Italian used for everyday life and which may also have had regional variations

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James H


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Oh, blimey. This should be a new thread, if not on a different website altogether. However . .

German doesn't lend itself to abbreviations, whilst being in need of it more than most. However, the two examples you give aren't abbreviations. Mobilwagen is like Schnellboot - a mobile vehicle - and ein Nashorn is a rhinoceros (nose-horn). FYI, the similar Wespe means wasp, which is fair enough, but Marder is a pine-marten.The few handy contractions that spring to mind are Jasta (Jagdstaffel or fighter squadron, from jagen - to hunt), Flak (Flugabwehrkanone), and Oberst (Obersturmbannführer), all of which were in use in WWI. And Panzer, of course. I'm sure there are others.

Stalag is short for Stammlager meaning a camp for the main body (of troops), and there were Oflager (Offizierlager) and Ilager (Interneelager). So there are one or two nice, neat ones, but the rest of the time it's a struggle. There are moments of light relief; Klops is a meatball, and Hoppelpoppel is scrambled egg.

All of which leads to a new hypothesis: would the Germans have won the War if it hadn't taken them so long to give orders?

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Centurion


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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I gave examples of nicknames not abbreviations! Mobilewagon actually means furniture van and was the nickname for an SP AAgun (because with the sides up it looked like a furniture van). I was wondering if any of the guns etc of WW1 had German nicknames. (yes I know about Bertha and Emma). The Royal Marine Artillery  called their big howitzer Granny.

-- Edited by Centurion at 14:56, 2007-03-19

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James H


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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A furniture van is ein Möbelwagen. Actually.

Let's forget this now.



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SASH155


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RE: re: New photos of "15cm slK i.R.L L/40"
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In an earlier post I wrote:

Now in reply to my previous posts I must point out that Franz Kosar indicates in his "Taschenbuch de Artillerie: Mittlere Feldgeschutze" that there indeed was a 15cm slK i.R.L. L/45, as well as the same, or at least a similar weapon mounted on a rail carriage (it seems to have had a top mounted recuperator or buffer cylinder), as well as on board barges (see the photos in one of the earlier threads). However I must concede that someone needs to go see these two guns together (at Varna?) and confirm my hunch by measuring them or by at least reading the markings on the breech rings etc... in order to definitively clear the confusion up(possibly mine alone) . I remain convinced that we have "affaire" of two entirely different pieces of ordnance (it is also possible that I have their identification completely ass-backwards, and have been mistaken all these years).

confuseSince that time in 2006 I have puzzled over the two 15cm weapons seen side by side in the earlier photo of the two captured guns in the artillery section of the site, and am not yet sure that I can say with any certainty that one is the slK i.R.L. L/40 andthe other the slK i.R.L. L/45 just merely based on the construction of the ordnance (there might have been two or more types of L/40 ordnance???). Since that time I have seen photos of several 15cm L/45 guns built with three tubes (A,B,C) in more or less equal steps from the breech ring, which in no way resemble the naval guns seen on the field carriages, and these were for the most part still mounted in fixed shore batteries still on their naval pedestals and barbettes. Perhaps Ralph Lovett could straighten us out definitively on this conundrum. It would be helpful to have some confirmation.

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