Just been having another browse through T. Pidgeon's book, and it doesn't seem to say exactly how many Tanks were lost on the 15th. I know definitions of "lost" vary (temporarily OOA, recovered, etc) but I've found a reference that says two were "destroyed." Other details are a bit sketchy. Does anyone have any more info?
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Had a look in A New Excalibur and The Guinness Book of Tank Facts and Feats. Can't give you any definitive answers from these two books, and A New Excalibur is a bit confusing as the account switches to Guedecourt 11 days later and then Thiepval, before a summation stating that 49 tanks were used, 32 of them reaching the starting point - which leaves me unsure whether the account has jumped back to Flers, or whether the actions a couple of weeks later at Guedecourt and Thiepval also had 49 tanks allocated between them. Most versions I have read say 36 tanks reached their starting points at Flers, not 32, hence the uncertainty.
According to A New Excalibur:
6th Div had three tanks, two of which broke down before the start point. The other one was hit by AP rounds, wounding the driver, the vision devices were damaged and the tank returned without success.
56th Div (London Territorials) had three tanks, of which one broke down before the start and one was hit by field arty, set on fire. The book says no direct mention is made about the other tank, but apparently a Brigade Major recorded that a tank had returned past their HQ full of holes, and he questioned whether boiler plate might have been installed by mistake.
Guards Div had ten tanks, of which three engines refused to start, the other seven presumably went into action - although it does say that the tank tasked with taking on the south-east corner of Delville Wood did not go into action; whether or not it was one of the ones that would not start up is not clear. No mention is made of the fates of these vehicles.
47th Div, III Corps, had four tanks that all got stuck, either on tree stumps or shell holes. III Corps apparently received 18 tanks, presumably including the four just mentioned. Three were sent to the south-east corner of Delville Wood (either from 14th Div or 41st Div). Of these, D1 reached the objective, prised out the German troops, then was hit twice by field arty on the return trip. The Guinness Book of Tank Facts and Feats says that this machine was the first tank ever to go into action, and adds that it was hit on the starboard sponson, killing two crew members, and also on one of the tracks, which broke, also making D1 the first tank put out of action.
Also mentioned in TGBoTFaF is that D5 reached a German battery a little past Flers, drove them away, but had to set off for the British lines when fuel ran low, and was hit by German shells, catching fire. Not sure if this might be the same tank as the one from 56th Div.
Back to New Excalibur:
2nd Canadian Div got seven tanks. All probably started alright, but one broke down, two were "bogged" (whether by mud, or inability to defeat a pocket of Germans is unclear), the rest were unable to keep up with the infantry approaching Courcelette. The book states that one tank joined up with the 15th (Scottish) Div after its "mate" was "dead" (whether you take that to mean out of action or destroyed, I leave to you).
D6, D9, D16 and D17 (Dinnaken) are mentioned as having passed through the 11th Royal West Kents and 15th Hampshires en route to Flers. D16 entered Flers and layed into the Germans from the main street. It was apparently joined in this by "the others", but I thought only three tanks were supposed to have reached Flers, not four?
That about sums up the account of the battle. As said before, mention is later made that 49 tanks were used, of which 32 reached the start point, nine of these failing to keep up with infantry but mopping up behind, five getting ditched, nine breaking down and nine passing the infantry and having some success. This total probably refers to the later actions at Guedecourt and Thiepval on 26th September, but I think it worth mentioning as it refers to an allocation of 49 tanks, the same as had been available for Flers-Courcelette on the 15th; That suggests either that no tanks were destroyed, just damaged, on 15th September, or else that more tanks must have been delivered to the Western Front in the 11 day gap between these actions.
Gwyn - I must confess I have spotted a couple of errors in it: in Appendix 2 it claims that WW1 British tanks were mostly painted olive green (perhaps they were thinking of Solomon camo, as they state it was "sometimes speckled by yellow"). Also, on p.81 there is a picture of the Light Infantry Tank mis-captioned as Medium D.
I bought my copy in a second-hand bookshop because there are a few interesting photos in it.
-- Edited by TinCanTadpole on Friday 8th of March 2013 09:14:13 PM
Thank you, citizens. You might be interested to learn that at one time the figure given on Wikipedia for losses on Sep 15th was 100. Probably needs rounding down.
Curious, though, that there is no familiar, acknowledged figure. You would have thought it would be a bit of folklore.
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Am picking my way through TP's account of the engagement. He describes the casualties as they occur, but doesn't give a total figure in the summing up. Not as far as I can see, anyway. And it appears there was a tank casualty on the 16th.
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Am picking my way through TP's account of the engagement. He describes the casualties as they occur, but doesn't give a total figure in the summing up. Not as far as I can see, anyway. And it appears there was a tank casualty on the 16th.
James, is there in Trevor Pidgeon's book any info on German airplanes attacking directly or directing artillery fire on British tanks during the battle? Probably not, I never found info on such incident, but I'm still not sure and curious. TP's book is said to be the best and most detailed, so if he doesn't mention this, I will assume there was no such event.
When you finish reading the book, will you make summary of British tanks destroyed and damaged during the battle? Such stats would be great. Was artillery the only tank killer or maybe other types of weapons were also effective?
Interestingly enough, there's an article in the March 2013 issue of "Britain at War" on this engagement, concentrating on D16 "Dracula". Noted casualties are D9 "Dolly", D14, D11 "Die Hard" & D7 (A Mk1 Male). It's noted that only 32 out of 49 tanks made it to the start line. Mention is made of observation balloons directing artillery fire onto attacking tanks.
Interestingly enough, there's an article in the March 2013 issue of "Britain at War" on this engagement, concentrating on D16 "Dracula". Noted casualties are D9 "Dolly", D14, D11 "Die Hard" & D7 (A Mk1 Male). It's noted that only 32 out of 49 tanks made it to the start line. Mention is made of observation balloons directing artillery fire onto attacking tanks.
30 tanks got to a German front line on 15 September and therefore could be said to be "in direct action". As for the number lost, that depends on your definition. Do you mean damaged beyond use or never recovered.
Have a look below and make up your own mind
Location and Tank Skipper Action Courcelette (4 in action) C1 (Champagne) Alfred Wheeler Ditched in enemy trench and abandoned C2 (Cognac) Frank Bluemel Ditched in enemy trench; recovered C6 (Cordon Rouge) John Allen Reached final objective and returned C3 (Chartreuse) Stanley Clark Did not get beyond start point C4 (Chablis) George Campbell Did not get beyond start point C5 (Crème de Menthe) Arthur Inglis Reached final objective and returned
Martinpuich / Bazentin (3 in action) D20 (Daphne) Harry Drader Reached 2nd objective and returned D23 George Mann Lost track en route to start point D24 Walter Stones Immobilised by enemy arty fire on objective D25 Edward Colle Immobilised by enemy arty fire on objective
High Wood (1 in action) C23 (Clan Ruthven) Andrew Henderson Ditched in SW of High Wood behind British front line D13 (Delilah) Bill Sampson Ditched on German trench line D21 (Delphine) Alex Sharp Ditched in E of High Wood behind British front line D22 Eric Robinson Ditched in E of High Wood behind British line
West of Flers (4 in action) D8 George Bown Reached final objective and returned D10 Harold Darby Reached third objective and destroyed by enemy fire D11 (Die Hard) George Pearsall Reached final objective and destroyed in action the next day D12 Graeme Nixon Immobilised by enemy arty fire having reached final obj
Flers (6 in action) D6 Reginald Legge Destroyed by enemy direct fire on final objective D9 (Dolly) Victor Huffam Ditched on British front line; destroyed in action next day D14 Gordon Cort Ditched on British front line: destroyed in action next day D17 (Dinnaken) Stuart Hastie Reached final objective, broke down on way to rally point D19 Stephen Sellick Broke down en route to start point D2 Daredevil 2?) Harold Bell Did not reach start point D15 Jonathan Bagshaw Immobilised by enemy arty fire on German trench line D7 Alfred Enoch Ditched in No Mans Land D16 (Dracula) Arthur Arnold Reached final objective and returned D18 Leonard Bond Reached final objective and returned D1(Daredevil I) Harold Mortimore Immobilised by own arty fire having under initial task D3 Harold Head Damaged in No Mans land and limped to Rideau de Filoires D4 Charles Storey Ditched in Delville Wood on way to start point D5 (Dolphin) Arthur Blowers Destroyed by enemy fire having reached final objective
Ginchy (6) Tank A Jethro Tull Steering gear wrecked in no man's land Tank B John Clarke Reached 1st objective and returned to refuel Tank Casa Victor Smith Reached 3rd objective and returned. Tank D Henry Hiscocks Ditched at start point Tank E - Alex Arnaud Ditched at start point Tank F Tom Murphy Damaged on deployment. Later reached 2nd objective and returned Tank G Leonard Bates Ditched en route to 2nd obj Tank H Herbert Elliott Reached second objective and returned to refuel Tank K Charles Ambrose Steering tail and engine problems; did not deploy C24 Clan Cameron Harold Cole Returned to start point after reaching1st objective
Ginchy (4) C19 (Clan Leslie) Archie Holford-Walker Stub axle damaged en route to start point. Did not deploy C20 George Macpherson Reached final objective and returned C21 Harold Vincent Did not leave RV C22 Basil Henriques Reached objective and returned
Bouleau and Leuze Woods (2) C13 Sir John Dashwood Tracks split en route to start point C14 Francis Arnold Ditched on 1st objective having got well into enemy territory C16 Corruna Eric Purdy Reached 1st objective; track damaged by British arty fire
I was secretly hoping Stephen might come to the rescue. Much obliged for that magnificent information, sir. As you say, the question remains of what constitutes a "loss". It seems that three were destroyed by enemy action on the 15th, but, of the rest, those that were disabled by one means or another were all recoverable. So three "kills" on day one, and the rest recycled or abandoned. Is that fair?
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