Landships II

 

Thank you very much. 

I'd seen a reference to the Holt's photo album in a 1960s publication but I hadn't thought it survived.

The drawings in the Chrisite patents are very close to the produced SPGs - I suspect Christie drew them based on the blueprints

of the vehicles.

The 1918 8inch SPG gets slagged off as weird looking but Christie was far ahead of his time. The intent of the large return roller

was to reduce the angle the track was turned through. It also, although I don't Christie recognised this, stops destructive

resonances in the return run of the track. The same idea has appeared in recent years in heavy Caterpillar bulldozers.

The 1918 155mm SPG got very close to production - the Ordnance Dept recommended production based on extensive testing

of a number of very similar vehicles.

The attached image is the sole survivor of the US SPGs - it's a Mark X Holt with an M1920 4.7 inch gun at the Artillery Museum at

Fort Sill.

Regards,

Charlie

 

-- Edited by CharlieC on Saturday 23rd of March 2013 12:26:02 PM

Ironsides wrote:

---

Hi Charlie I believe this is what your looking for

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4013coll7/id/615/rec/1

-- Edited by Ironsides on Saturday 23rd of March 2013 10:40:30 AM

---

Fantastic link, amazing photos, many thanks!

 

The early Holt Mark I to III were pretty big vehicles. They were based on the 10-ton artillery tractor and proved

to be too heavy and too slow (the Mark II with 155mm GPF had a top speed of 3 mph). I can't see how Holt could

have patented these since they were built at the Rock Island Arsenal. However the 1917 Holt 55-1 was built by Holt

and may have been patented by them. I'd certainly be interested in the other patents they may fill in some of the

(many) missing details about these vehicles.

The image of Christie with the 75mm SPG is a bit of a puzzle - there are some features in common with the 1921

Christie 75mm but the working space for the gun didn't exist on the earlier vehicle. At a guess I say the vehicle

was a development of the 1921 Christie 75mm (attached). Whether this ever was tested by the US Army is a moot point because

the development of SPGs had been stopped by recommendation of the Artillery Board in 1923.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Sunday 24th of March 2013 01:36:33 PM

I would hazard the guess ocher, green, black and white and one other color possibly brown , there is a contemporary color pic of a limber on ralph lovetts site that shows the first four colors...

http://lovettartillery.com/US%20M%201918%20Limber.html 

The pic attached is  from the minnasota historical society entitled "An American Gun" dated 07/26/1919

also one more here

http://rockislandww1tanks.blogspot.de/

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 28th of March 2013 08:45:03 PM

My guess (and that's all it is)is that the colours will be similar to those used by the French on their FTs at the same time - it looks much like it in B&W, and the Americans would be familiar with French camo. If you want a more detailed suggestion, then I would point out that warm-coloured lens filters lighten warm colours in B&W photography (and darken the cool colours), whereas cold-coloured filters (blue or green) lighten the cool colours.

The difficulty is in trying to guess whether the soldier's uniform should be a mid-tone or a dark one, and with a warm or a cool filter; if anyone has a suggestion there, then it may help to identify what the very dark colour on the left of the photo is - a cool filter would suggest it was a warm colour, reddish, so I would be suggesting a reddish-brown like that used on French FTs.

In any case, the pale colour might be stone/yellowish-stone.

Theres a number of other pics from the same date showing different weapons and armour I think all in American war Service or prototypes which include the MKV "Baby Doll, Read em and weep" in "action" plenty of civilians about, location could be Rock Island Arsenal Museum reopening after the lifting of restrictions in 1919 following the Spanish Flu outbreak or I thought possibly Fort Snelling or perhaps both.. unfortunatly I dont have the links anymore..

Cheers

 

A small puzzle - Christie built an SPG in 1921 which could be equiped with a 75mm gun or 105mm howitzer. There's not much

information on this vehicle but there are a couple of quite clear images. The image taken of the front of the vehicle shows a gun

with a sliding wedge breech. The US like the British seemed to prefer interrupted screw breeches on their guns.

Any ideas what the gun is?

Regards,

Charlie

 

 

There is for the patent on the two small roadwheel design - GB172537A. (worldwide.espacenet.com)

This design was used in the Christie 75/105mm SPG and the M1919 Medium Tank.

Regards,

Charlie

Ironsides wrote:

---

 

"There is for the patent on the two small roadwheel design - GB172537A. (worldwide.espacenet.com)"

Hi Charlie curious do you remember what your search criteria was as it doesnt come up under "Walter Christie" in fact I dont get any GB patents for Christie, US and French only which I thought a bit odd..

 

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides on Wednesday 3rd of April 2013 02:28:49 PM

---

 I used "Walter Christie" as the search term. I've noticed that the number of patents returned from the same search term varies.

I think the search on Espacenet is a bit unstable. I did find a patent I hadn't seen before for a wheel/tracked 4.7inch AA platform from 1920 -

there are a couple of images of this vehicle in the Christie article but nothing seems to be known about it. 

The camo scheme on the 6-ton tank is certainly a candidate for the 240mm - looks very similar to the 240mm images when monochromed and

tweaked so the darkest colours more or less match in appearance between the two images.

 

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Wednesday 3rd of April 2013 10:24:09 PM

Hi Charlie found a link on landships here for a book in Russian "Christie military machines 1916-1927" (a secure pdf)

http://landships.activeboard.com/t29337745/i-search-any-photos-or-driwings-of-christie-tank-m1921/

follow the link for a free download, the book was published not so long ago and the author Neo1940 (landships member)may still be active, the unknown 75mm SPG appears to be a USMC Amphibious prototype there are plenty of pics of several different versions in development... perhaps one of our Russian or russian speaking members can help here

A second book by Christies son is probarbly worth getting hold of

http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Pics/Books/Bk-Steel-Steeds.jpg

 

Some additional information from "Stuart" by Hunnicut which has quite a few Christies(clicking on Stuart download a 90mb pdf of book)

USMC prototype (1923) 75mm Amphibious Gun carrier.

Speed: tracks 30mph, wheels 18.5 mph, water 7.5

Engine: Christie 6 cylinder 90HP

Armour 6mm approx (one quarter inch)

weight 6.5 tons

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides on Thursday 4th of April 2013 09:25:10 AM

 

I've run into a bit of a deadend about the US SPGs. 

I think I can build a reasonable case that the development of the SPGs was solely under the direction and control of the Ordnance Dept

as a consequence of a recommendation of an Ordnance Board in March 1916 that systematic investigation of mechanisation for the U.S. Army

should occur as a matter of urgency.

Where I run into problems is that I haven't been able to find any documentation on the process the Ordnance Dept ran through to 

initiate projects and engage manufacturers like Holt and Christie to build and deliver vehicles. From other period articles and reports

it looks like the Ordnance Dept (O.D.) was following a fairly rigid process which may have been something like:

1. Ordnance Dept circulates a memorandum around manufacturers specifying the general requirements of a vehicle - I'm fairly sure the first

SPG one in 1917 was for a mobile platform for the 3inch AA gun.

2. Interested manufacturers responded and the O.D filtered the proposals down to those which looked promising/possible.

3. A specification and payment schedule was worked out with a manufacturer and a contract signed.

4. The vehicle was delivered and tested by O.D - any deficiencies were corrected by the manufacturer until the terms of the contract were met.

5. There was a further process(es) if a vehicle was satisfactory and was approved for production but none of the SPGs got this far - the Christie 155mm

SPG was recommended for production but it was never taken up.

Has anyone any more information on the O.D processes or can correct what I've inferred?

Regards,

Charlie

Hi Charlie on the 250 X 240mm howitzers these seem to include 2 types from "The armies of industry"pg 131

"At the time these orders were placed, the Ordnance Depart-
ment contracted with the Standard Steel Car Company at its
mill at Hammond, Indiana, to build 250 caterpillar mounts
for 240-millimeter howitzers. This great weapon was the
largest gun we attempted to put on a self-moving mount. In
its motorization program the Ordnance Department was not
rejecting the experience of the French, and in the contract with
the Standard Steel Car Company it split the mounts ordered
into two types, one a mount which followed closely the St.
Chamond mount in its specifications, and one, a self-contained
unit, designed by our own ordnance engineers. By the terms of
its contract the Standard Steel Car Company was to build both
sorts."

So presumably the MK III and MKIV but it does seem like a large number never the less...

It  occured to me that the MKIV would need two chassis per gun, the actual number ordered is unknown to me but if this was the case and was included in the total amount it would reduce the actual number of guns substantially...

The way I read it is 4 prototypes were built, the Holt 55 with two guns tested (3"and 8")  and 3 new ones (8", 155mm. 240mm)based on the experience gained...

The workings of the US procurement system is a complete mystery to me

Cheers

 

-- Edited by Ironsides on Wednesday 10th of April 2013 07:39:01 AM

The numbers of SPGs ordered are internally inconsistent in the texts. Crowell says that a total of 270 were ordered then later says

that there were 50 Mark I, 50 Mark II and 250 Mark III + Mark IV. I think the lower total number is reasonable although it's still

a lot of heavy howitzer SPGs. So the likely figures were 50 Mark I, 50 Mark II and 170 Mark III + Mark IV. The total orders by the

French Army for the St Chamond SPGs were about the same (75 x 220mm howitzer (cancelled), 25 x 280mm howitzer (delivered 1919),

50 x 194mm GPF gun (delivered 1919), 130 x 155mm GPF gun (cancelled)) - total of 280 SPGs.

Regards,

Charlie

 

Your analysis sounds reasonable to me. I don't think we'll ever know for sure unless someone goes digging in the U.S archives.

I think I'll quote the numbers in the Holt SPG article and note the inconsistency.

Baldwin made the carriages for the 7" guns, I've seen reference to that elsewhere, but I've never seen any reference to the source

of the track units. I liked Crowell's account of where the 7" guns came from. I had assumed they were old guns from obsolete ships

as the British 6" guns were. The account says they were fairly modern guns which came from the casements of Connecticut-class (1902-04)

pre-dreadnaught battleships used for convoy escort in WW1.

 

Regards,

Charlie

Hi Charlie came across this M1917 seems like it may be the an example of reconstructed camo from  original remains

http://www.brhoward.com/world_war_tank.html

at least it may give a general indication of the colors used  if not the form in the early 20s?

Cheers