Landships II

Ah I had the same problem with the link as well even updated flash player but still no good , the photo is obviously a MKV and instantly recognisable as such on the rest I cant comment...

 I wonder where this all originates

Cheers

I suspect its the Chamberlain and Ellis illustration, however the profile publication MKI-V by the same authors doesnt mention Hermaphrodites at all from what I can see for either tank (scanning it with MKI eyeball that is)... doesnt seem to be any reference in Stern or Fuller (Sponson, Composite and Hermaphrodite were used for the search by foxit reader usually reliable)...

"Men and Tanks" and "Life in a tank" (1918) makes no mention either...

This book however mentions MKV "Hermaphrodites" and the reason for their creation...

"The Tank in Action" (1920) captain D.G.Browne MC. page 494

"So far as the Tank Corps was concerned, the only lesson to be drawn from the encounter at Niergnies
was one already learnt at Villers-Bretonneux namely, the advisability, in view of further similar meetings, of fitting
every tank with a 6-pounder gun. It was as a result of these two actions that a number of Mark V. and V. Star
females were converted into composite or "hermaphrodite" machines, with a 6-pounder sponson on one side. The
occasion for which they were designed, however, did not recur. Although the Germans used one or two tanks in subsequent counter-attacks, our machines did not meet them again."

Still looking

Edit: MKIV Hermaphrodites are mentioned in "Armour in Profile 1. Tank Mark IV" by John Foley 1967(see image for relevant text)

Searched "The Tank Corps" Ellis,  nothing relevant and no mention of Hemaphrodite....

From "The Fighting Tanks 1916-18"  Jones, Rarey, Icks (1933) page 31 " A few female tanks were fitted with male right sponsons and called MKV Composite", also metioned in Russia later in the book.

however we know that both Left and right male sponsons were used....

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides on Monday 15th of July 2013 09:23:46 AM

Is it possible that hermaphrodite MK IVs might have existed, but not been documented photographically? Or at least, not in any known surviving photos? Should there be records stating that certain machines were converted, if such a conversion took place, or is it possible that conversions of a small number of machines could have occurred without it being recorded, or with the documents being lost at some point in history?

Such questions I cannot answer, someone such as Gwyn will know better, but if there is at least a possibility of some MK IVs having been converted (I am not saying that any were), then certainly there was a brief gap of a couple of months or so between the action at Villers-Bretonneux and the Mk Vs entry into service in July 1918. If the need was seen in April, might some IVs have been converted to bridge the gap until the V entered service?

That makes sense Gwyn, thanks. Perhaps confusion arose because Mk IVs were being converted too - but, as you say, into tenders not composites.

I think you mentioned some time ago (or someone did) the mathematics of the conversions - one Mk 'X' equals two Mk 'Y's sort of thing, according to how the sponsons were swapped about. Presumably that would make it pointless to query if, even if only briefly to start with, the procedure might have been to take off the right sponson of a Mk IV male, take off the right sponson of a Mk V female, and swap the two over. This would be a suitable way of making two composites, one a Mk IV and the other a Mk V, from a male IV and a female V. From what I remember though, it has already been stated elsewhere that this did not happen. It was a case of removing both sponsons from the IV and transferring them, one each, to a pair of Vs to make two composite Vs plus a stack of spare female sponsons.

Maybe the idea of sponson-swapping made someone think that it was simple as swapping the right sponsons of two tanks, to make some Mk IV composites - without recognising that that the IVs were turned into tenders?

As an offshoot question, since the Mk IV became obsolescent/obsolete in mid-1918, does anyone know when they were last used as battle tanks - I ask because, obviously, Lodestar III and other Mk IV males survived the war with their sponsons, so did any Mk IV take part in the fighting after the Mk V entered action in July?

As James has answered the history question, I'll try the maths one. Essentially, you're right, both sponsons would be removed from a Mark IV and used to create Composite Mark V or V* machines. Remember that there was also a stock of battle damaged tanks available, often with usable sponsons.

Gwyn

Yes they did. On 9 November 1918, 12th Battalion had 23 Mark IV fighting tanks. 7th Battalion also fought theirs throughout 1918 although by 9 November they had handed them in and were in the process of converting to Mark V and V*. Interestingly, although 8th and 13th Battalions had converted to Mark Vs much earlier in 1918, on 9 November 1918 both had a solitary Mark IV fighting tank on strength.

Gwyn

Hi,

I realize that this thread is abit old, but in reviewing the IWM movie footage (that the OP provided a link for) today I noticed that while the tank in question does appear to be a Mark V, it may not necessarily be a standard Mark V Hermaphrodite in that a) the aft raised square "Commander's Cabin" appears to be missing and b) right hand side "Male" sponson appears to be a Supply sponson (or a Male Sponson with the guns removed and the 6pdr gun aperture blanked off).

Here are four stills from the video that help show the asymmetric Drivers and Gunners hatches in the forward cabin, the engine cooling vents in the left and right hand sides of the hull, the female sponson on the right hand side, the male "Baggage(?)" sponson on the left hand side, and the apparent lack of a raised Commanders Cabin aft.

The video is copyright of the IWM and hopefully it is alright to post these stills from it here to clarify these features.  If not I can take them down, and if you view the video you will see the tank in question about a 1/3rd of the way into the video and then again right near the end, and you can see these features.

Regards

Pat