Landships II

... I can't remember or find what I'm looking for.

Could some kind soul identify this tank for me please?  A Mark I thoroughly out of action at Gaza.  Is it Sir Archibald or is it another one?

All help gratefully received. Thanks

Gwyn

Rectalgia said "Is this the same one?"

Definatly not the pic I enlarged shows the remains of a Male.... probarbly a MKI

If the info is right and its the 2nd battle of Gaza then according to this site:

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/media/photo/destroyed-british-tank-gaza

Three tanks were destroyed "HMLS Sir Archibald, HMLS War Baby and HMLS Nutty"  so by elimination this should be "Sir Archibald" since the other two are Females....

"landships" seems to confirm it...

https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/narratives/1917/gaza

There is a fly in the ointment however in that there are pictures of Sir Achibald damaged and abandoned but in a relatively complete condition, but it might be that the date of April 1917 on the AWM pic is implied rather then actual and that this is a much later pic taken long after the battlefield has been abandoned.... presumably after the Third Battle?

Cheers

Took the liberty of enlarging and enhancing the pic in the link from AVM that Charlie Supplied...

Cheers

Attributed to 2nd Battle of Gaza, (19 April 1917), per the documentation in Charlie's AWM link, suspect though critical parts of that same detail has turned out to be.  Still, some bits are more likely to be correct than others and location is one of the more likely to be right.

Almost certainly destroyed by British shelling or perhaps bombing. The crews tried to set fire to disabled tanks in an attempt to destroy them if the Turks might reach them but the Turks still used them as sniping redoubts, forcing sterner measures.

Is this the same one?
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P02041.006

Other AWM tank pictures from Gaza, mostly disabled, the story of the "tank redoubts" in Turkish hands emerges.

http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P08401.004
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/B02001/
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/B01784/
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/B02945/
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/A00226/
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P05093.027
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/J01045/
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/B02000/
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P05140.016
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/B02002/
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/B02944/
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P05572.001

Gwyn Evans wrote:

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... BTW, I agree that the damage looks as though it's been caused by an explosion from within the tank, so a demolition charge seems to fit the bill. What a waste - if they'd waited almost 100 years I'd have had it.

Gwyn

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Been agonising over this aspect - one of the AWM captions seemed to say that a set fire in the tank would ignite fuel and set off any remaining ammunition but it seems reasonably clear that stored supplies would not account for anything like the scale of damage seen in some of those photos (shell fuse and explosive types? likelihood of single explosion low and power probably low), especially your one - nor would shelling (the accuracy and size of shells required ...). 

One of those captions mentions "hundreds of dead" surrounding one of those "redoubt" tanks (again the accounts are not necessarily very reliable).  But, all-in-all, there's something of a story behind all of this I think.  One imagines considerable effort and manpower being expended later in the proceedings in neutralising any stranded but more-or-less intact tank hulks commanding a good field of fire over actual or potential battle lines or lines of communications - perhaps in preparation for the third battle as Ironsides suggests.

If the photo caption of the destroyed Mark I is accurate in the unit ident then the image must have been taken long after

the 3rd Gaza Battle in Nov 1917. The 14th Light Horse was not created until June 1918 from elements of the Imperial Camel Corps (since

camels couldn't cope with the conditions in Palestine). The unit diaries for the 14th LH start in August 1918 suggesting the unit

wasn't formed as a complete entity until August. Initially the 14th LH was based at Saraband (Surafend), east of the modern Tel Aviv. During Sept 1918

the 14th moved north and arrived in Damascus at the end of the month. After the collapse of the Ottoman Army the 14th was based

at Homs in Syria until about March 1919.

At the earliest the image of the destroyed Mark I was taken in June 1918 but more likely in August 1918.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 23rd of July 2013 01:30:36 PM

Not sure if this will help... this MK1 tank has the smooth tensioner wheel in the front horn. A lot of the Gaza MK1s still had the toothed wheels that were quickly abandoned on the tanks in Europe.

Also on the ground on the far right, I think I can see two of the three triangle exhaust baffles. If this is the case, then it may narrow down the options even more, as some of the mk1s had an exhaust fitted like the ones on the MKIVs. It ran along the roof, venting out the bottom of the hydraulic shied at the rear.

Helen x

It would be interesting to know if there was some late MK1s amongst the batch sent to Gaza. Personally I find myself wondering if the exhaust pipe system and smooth front wheel is just field modifications using spares for the MKIVs. The fact that some had their original toothed front wheels and triangular baffles, makes me have my doubts.

The good thing about wrecks is they give you a set date for a particular tanks setup, something I used when doing my plans as I never fully rust museum tanks not to be modified in some way.

I'm fairly sure this tank is Sir Archibald, burnt out after being hit by artillery fire near Sheihk Abbas Ridge on 17/4/17, during the lead up to the Second Battle of Gaza.. It seems likely from the photo above that the wreck was further demolished in the interim between 2nd and 3rd Gaza, either by Turkish artillery or British explosive charges. The "E" Co. war diary does not mention any intentional demolition.