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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Modelling -> Seeking information on brackets on Mk.IV cab roof front
Post Info TOPIC: Seeking information on brackets on Mk.IV cab roof front
Michael Grieve

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Seeking information on brackets on Mk.IV cab roof front
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Hi there all!

 

I’m currently building the new Tamiya Mk.IV as “Sir Reginald” in the Middle East, and have noted that I’ll need to add two brackets, one on each side of the front of the cab roof. I seem to recall reading that these brackets had something to do with fitting camouflage, but I could easily be mistaken on that point.

 

http://www.ammsbrisbane.com/ajax/reference/images/Mark_IV_25_small.jpg


 

While I have seen plenty of photos of these brackets taken looking up from ground level, I’ve not seen any clear shots at or above roof level – so, I’m not clear on how they were fitted to the roof. Does anyone out there have a photo taken from/above roof level that show these brackets, or can point me towards one?

 

In addition, if anyone has measurements for these brackets, and would be able to share them, that’d be much appreciated. If not, I’m sure I can make a reasonable guess.

 

Thanks and best regards

 

Mike

(Canberra, Australia)

 



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CharlieC


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That website will not allow direct linking of images - I should know - I built it.

You can either refer to the page - the URL is at the bottom of each page: 

that is: http://www.ammsbrisbane.com/home.html?L0=6&L1=0&L2=14

 

or copy the full sized image (attached) - you were trying to link the thumbnail

Regards,

Charlie

(webmaster www.ammsbrisbane.com)



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mad zeppelin


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Attached phote shows a tank with brackets. Note that there is a set of four of them, two on the cab, two in the centre of the tank. Grit seems to have the same arrangement. Looks like four points to fix something on/between them.



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MZ
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Legend

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Mike, look at the photos of "Liberty" on this page:

http://www.landships.info/landships/tank_articles.html?load=tank_articles/Surviving_Mark_IV.html

 



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Gwyn Evans


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Just to confirm, these were originally intended to act as supports for a camouflage net. The central supports were used to support the unditching beam rail and once that was in place the supports for the net were redundant in any case.

Gwyn

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mad zeppelin


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Yes, but... The brackets front and centre are to support a beam (red), hence the bolsterings at the centre bracktes. Would make sense if the beams support an anti-grenade mesh (blue).



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MZ
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Legend

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Interesting conjecture Mad Zeppelin but you have drawn in an anti-grenade mesh that was used only briefly and only on some Mark I tanks; it was never seen again. The tank in your photo is, I'm sure you know, a Mark IV.

All I can think to add to what Gwyn said is that I've only ever seen the front brackets on Mark IVs that don't have their unditching rails attached, such as the war bonds tanks, and touring tanks (Julian, Nelson, Grit, Liberty etc).



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mad zeppelin


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Yes, but... The holes in the brackets front and centre are in perfect alignment. So, something could be clicked in. And the bolstering panels on the centre brackets clearly are for holding something in place at the same height as the cab. I won't insist on an anti-grenade mesh, that's only a guess. But the idea obviously was to fix something up there. The usefulness of the brackets for attaching camouflage nets seems rather moot.



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MZ
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mad zeppelin wrote:

... And the bolstering panels on the centre brackets clearly are for holding something in place at the same height as the cab. ...

Yes, the unditching rails. The centre brackets supported the unditching rails.

But the brackets at the front were not in place when the unditching rails were. The brackets at the front were purely for camouflage.



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mad zeppelin


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Not quite. The centre brackets could be converted to support the unditching beam rails, but the bolstering panels became disfunctional in the process - and the fixing holes were covered by the attachments which supported the rail. The front brackets obviously had to be removed to allow unditching beam operation. However, what we see on these training, demonstration etc. - non-combat, at least for the Western Front - tanks predates the unditching beam and is far closer to the original concept (whatever it was).



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Gwyn Evans


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The reason why the front brackets aren't seen when unditching rails are fitted is that if left in place they would foul the undicthing rails. The reason that the brackets are in alignment is that they supported a frame over which was thrown a camouflage net. See David Fletcher's Haynes manual page 68 regarding the frame.

Gwyn

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mad zeppelin


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Yes, that's the evident part: the brackets were to support a frame. - But for camouflage nets? A rather lavish solution for a very simple and basic task, I think. Not very convincing...



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MZ
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Gwyn Evans wrote:

The reason why the front brackets aren't seen when unditching rails are fitted is that if left in place they would foul the undicthing rails. The reason that the brackets are in alignment is that they supported a frame over which was thrown a camouflage net. See David Fletcher's Haynes manual page 68 regarding the frame.

Gwyn

Thanks for the clarification, Gwyn. I wondered how those two little brackets on the front could possibly help with camouflage; I thought they might be stand-offs to disguise the shape, but they wouldn't really change the shape by themselves.

I have been trying to get a copy of the Haynes book. I have recently read the Haynes Great War Tommy and was thoroughly impressed. I guess I'll try a bit harder to get the MkIV one. 



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Gwyn Evans


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mad zeppelin wrote:

Yes, that's the evident part: the brackets were to support a frame. - But for camouflage nets? A rather lavish solution for a very simple and basic task, I think. Not very convincing...

 Well, that's what they're for.  I can't say any more than that.  There are, incidentally, two more supports of a different design at the rear, intended to take uprights to support the frame over the top.

Gwyn



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mad zeppelin


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Gwyn Evans wrote:
 There are, incidentally, two more supports of a different design at the rear, intended to take uprights to support the frame over the top.

Gwyn

Yes, I can see what you mean. Quite interesting. Have to think about it. - So, the brackets were standard factory production - and the unditching beam arrangement only a field modification. I've found some pictures showing Mk.IVs with brackets sitting row by row in France (or so the captions say) prior to the Flanders battle. However, I've only found one Mk.IV with brackets in German hands (the postcard is dated March 1918, but that's inconclusive), all other Mk.IVs seen destroyed or captured sport unditching beam rails. Those tanks not sent to France, obviously, kept the brackets - and were never converted to carry an unditching beam.



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MZ
m83


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I found some pics on this link of MkIV tanks covered in tarpaulin for transport. Did the brackets aid this in any way or were they exclusively for camo netting?

www.tankmuseum.org/ixbin/indexplus

Kev

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Anonymous

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Hi there all!

 

Sincerest thanks to you all for taking the time to point me towards some excellent photos in response to my query about the Mk.IV cab roof brackets (and correct the posting of images), and for carrying on a fascinating discussion. Very much appreciated! I now feel much more confident about having a bash at scratchbuilding the brackets

 

Thanks and best regards

 

Mike

[Approved "Pending Post", may have been missed by others posting after.  Mike, you may not have successfully completed your forum registration (maybe a validation e-mail hung up somewhere?)]

 



-- Edited by Rectalgia on Wednesday 1st of October 2014 10:46:29 AM

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Gwyn Evans


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Yes. Brackets were added by factories but rails only by Workshops.
No, I don't believe these brackets were used when tanks were covered by tarpaulin.
Gwyn

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MK1 Nut


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One thing I have learnt researching the MK1 Tank for my plans, is that all versions were very much a work in progress. New ideas were being investigated all the time and it was not unusual for something to be added in Britain, only to be discarded by the time the Tank reached the French shores.

The only real hope for a definitive answer on parts like these, lays in research and a lot of luck. Even a photo, if it is a one off, can only hint at, not prove use. The answer is probably hiding in the Division Orders somewhere. The order to fit the Unditching Beams may give you the use of the brackets, as the front ones need to be removed and could be named by their use.

It could also be hiding as a rough scribble on a set of plans or in someones memoirs.

Keep looking, that's part of the fun. 

Helen x



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mad zeppelin


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David Fletcher's "The British Tanks 1915-1919" shows a rather elusive camouflage design on page 91. Something like that may have been intended with the brackets. However, the construction shown seems to make do without the brackets. - For employing normal camouflage nets as later carried by the tanks the bracket arrangement was useless.

From the dimensions of the brackets and the rear mountings I get the impression that whatever may have been intended it aimed at using normal wooden planks of the kind that is found in construction and scaffolding.



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MZ
Gwyn Evans


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I agree. The brackets support a wooden frame but no-one knows exactly what it looked like. And that's the definitive answer
Gwyn


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