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Post Info TOPIC: WWI Modeling..."Tipping Points" and Aftermarket...Discussion?
Treadhead


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WWI Modeling..."Tipping Points" and Aftermarket...Discussion?
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Howdy All,

I was traipsing thru some of the 'old' threads in an effort to view some of the older discussions you chaps had here so I don't wind up maybe rehashing old yakkety-yaks, and came across a thread entitled something like "WWI modeling 'tipping point' ".
It was a great read indeed, and I enjoyed the interchange you fellas had on the subject.
Especially your comparison with the WWI aircraft genre and it's fairly recent expansion of interest.
I did a bit of steam-generating in my own brain about this and was hoping to share my thoughts and maybe coax one or two of you out there to share your thoughts about this once again.

My inclusion of the word "Aftermarket" in the thread title was intentional. Mainly because I genuinely feel that the modeling public out there today is somewhat different than it used to be when I originally began modeling as a hobby {in the 50's }
Meaning, that way back when, the main driving force behind the hobby were the manufacturer's. They basically had a strong hand in what hit the shelves at your local hobby store and for the most part what ingredients you used to adorn your chosen kit.
This is not so anymore in today's hobby environment {IMHO of course} with the instant, or 'real-time' communications across the world {the Internet}. Manufacturer's are now much more prone to listening to OUR voices and paying attention to OUR directions of interest {German WWII Steel being the 'untouchable' exception }. Foriegn companies have been very keen of late at producing kits that WE are requesting, and in record time {the recent release of the 1/35th Chinook comes to mind} Additionally, the absolute EXPLOSION of the Aftermarket product choices has become the true buttress of what/when and how the strength of a particular marketplace evolves. Just take a look at the entire WWII aftermarket industry and you will see what I am talking about.
I think that the WWI genre of modeling is beginning to grow {the aircraft portion leading the way as usual} and that is a good thing for us aficionado's of the time period, but we also need to properly embrace the belief that WE do in fact have a more powerful voice than we at first might suspect in this regard.
And I think it might all very well begin at a Forum just-like-this.......

.......my apologies for the soapbox, I will slide it under the bed for now But please, feel free to rebuke, chastise, agree or just simply yell at me.......

warm regards,

Tread.

PostScript: Be looking for me to start an 'Idea Bank' thread here just like Military Miniatures in Review magazine does every month

-- Edited by Treadhead at 05:58, 2006-02-18

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Peter Kempf


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I was just about to ask for what you really mean "properly embrace the belief that WE do in fact have a more powerful voice than we at first might suspect", but then I see your Postcript on starting an "Idea Bank". It sounds most interesting, but please tell us that doesn't read the Military Miniatures in Review: what does that mean? Suggestions to manufacturers?


I also believe that we are moving towards a "Tipping Point" for WW1 Military Modelling. But do you all want to know what is really needed to achieve that? PLANS!!! More and better scale plans! PLANS!!!!


If you try and analyze the sudden and massive breakthrough of WW1 Aero Modelling, with scores of really super plastic kits, it was the combination of:
1. The emergence of new Plastic Kit Companies in the East
2. The Resin Boom
PLUS - and this is important
3. The WEALTH of good plans when it comes to WW1 Aircraft. (Due not least to Albatros Publications and their excellent magazine "Windsock".)


We will never see such a impressive breakthrough *without* good plans, plain and simple!


(You can find a sort of backward proof for this, in the fact that the publication of a set of good plans, often have the effect, that in quite a short while a couple of good kits emerge. For example Prasils book on Heavy Skoda guns have one good gun plan, of the 42cm M.16, and soon after it's publication Extratech made a kit. And Modelkraks fine line of WW1 Armoured Cars came out after that good book on Russian WW1 Armoured Cars were published, with all their good plans. And very soon after the Polish AJ-Press had published their VERY good books on Japanese armour, with really SUPER plans, Armo started... - hey presto -  their long line of very fine Japanese Armour kits. Etc.)


I think that coming up with suggestions is an excellent thing to do, prodding different companies towards unseen opportunities. But another priority is plans. And that is much trickier to do, as it requires an expertise that few of us have - I for one don't.


But I have a suggestion for a stop-gap measure, that can still get us some way, and that is to produce some sort of complied LIST of ALL the good scale plans of WW1 military subjects that are out there, and where they could be found - mostly what book or magazine. A sort of virtual library. (Anyway: it is a common enough cry to be found on this forum: "I need plans of a so-and-so. Can anyone HELP?".)


Anyone willing to start? Anyone willing to just list all the good scale plans they know of? Just to get the ball rolling? I am of course most willing to publish it on the site, ASAP, and it will be a so called "living document", with anyone able to chip in, all the time.


Sorry about being long-winded, but I also think that we have an opportunity now...


 



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/Peter Kempf
Peter Kempf


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When I talk about doing a virtual Library of all scale plans of WW1 Military subjects, I am NOT talking about scanning the lot and posting it. THAT would be a breach of copyright. I talk simply of compiling a list of where they can be found! (And perhaps who found them, if people have problems aquiring them themselves.)



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/Peter Kempf
Treadhead


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Many, many thanks for taking the time to pipe-in on this subject Peter! And as far as being too "long-winded", as they say on the Soprano's...."Fagitaboudit!!" Everything you had to say was both important, and pertinent. My hope is that more of the people here at Landships who I have come to respect and admire will step forward and be as "long-winded"

To answer your question about Military Miniatures in Review magazine, it is a modeling magazine published quarterly by the American company of Ampersand Publishing and is presently up to issue Number 38, March 2006. It is mainly focused on WWII AFV's, with a moderate dash of modern thrown in for flavour. In my opinion it is a bar-setting magazine and whose pages always contain several features worth the price of purchase...anyway, also within those pages as a regular feature along with things like Mail Bag, is a section devoted to a running {and constantly updated} list of vehicles/subject matter that the magazines staff and the readers themselves have compiled as a communal 'wish' list that is in reality a plea to the manufacturer's to step up and produce something from the list. To further answer your question, I took a quick look at one of my latest issues of MMiR and their Idea Bank is comprised of two full pages of suggestions! {something somewhat surprising considering the rather hefty cost of page space in the publishing world...} It is broken up into three basic catagories; Plastic Kits, Resin Kits and Conversions, Updates & Accessories. Upon perusing precisely what is on the list, I could not find a single WWI suggestion! ............hence, my intention of establishing one right here at Landships!!.......with your permission first, of course Peter

Further, to address your paragraph that contains your 3 points;

"1. The emergence of new Plastic Kit Companies in the East"

Unfortunately you are indeed correct. I say "unfortunate" because one would think that at least one U.S. company might try to lead the way on this thing, but alas, that is not meant to be.
Your choice of using the word "East" is doubly correct as, not only are companies from the Far East like Trumpeter impressing the modeling community on an almost daily basis but too, so are "East"ern European companies like Eduard in the Czech Republic, and Roden out of Russia I believe. These are companies that are glad to have our input, and I think act on that input if we of the WWI modeling community did some of the footwork, or R&D for them....meaning, as our good Peter says, invest some time in compiling a bibliography of sorts listing sources and or books containing the information needed for these forward thinking manufacturer's to take on more WWI-related projects.

"2. The Resin Boom"

This second point I think supports my inclusion of the word "Aftermarket" in my title thread. Meaning, that resin is the medium of choice for most of the aftermarket, and garage kit makers, with injected plastic is the medium for the vast majority of the major manufacturer's. This "resin boom" is directly {again, IMHO} linked to the explosion of aftermarket companies popping up all over the place, and to a lesser extent, the scratcher's and kit-basher's out there in the modeling world who decide to build something on there own that is not available {yet} from an aftermarket company. But, add to this the recently increasing of cost of base materials used in the manufacturing of plastic itself, and resin may one day approach a balance with plastic.....who knows?
Which brings us to your third point.

"3. The WEALTH of good plans..."

Being an Architect by trade, I cannot disagree with you on this Peter. As a designer, the simple rule of "you never have too much information" is something that the manufacturer's, when faced with the choice of making a particular kit available {or not}, use as a measuring tool when weighing-in on whether to do it or not.
PLANS are indeed the platform on which all other considerations would hinge. Now, that doesn't mean right down to the last nut and bolt that was installed in the battery box that was mounted underneath the rear axle and behind the thingamajig, on a Model XYZ chassis manufactured only in one factory located in the steppes of Mother Russia...but it does mean that a somewhat accurate 'baseline' is needed to begin the process of producing a kit for the masses. If you have trouble believing this for some reason, just take a moment a think over any number of kits that were mass-marketed with severe errors present in their makeup...........thought for a bit?........comeup with something?.......thought you might

Obviously our challenge as far as PLANS go is, that because of the sheer age of the subject matter, existing plans will be a bit more difficult to come by than say plans of a WWII Sherman. But, to be honest, I can't think of a better group of lads than the membership right here at Landships to step up to the task and begin maybe doing some of that "footwork" so that maybe on the not-too-distant horizon some excellent examples of Great War machinery will be realized because of those efforts!


Finally, in closing {I'm sure you chaps are glad I'm shutting up} I would like to start my "Idea Bank" by starting up a simple thread with that as the title to. as Peter said, "get the ball rolling". I really think that we should have a proper part of the site here at Landships {clickable} where this list {once populated} can be viewed directly from the Homepage. I would also like to throw my hat into the ring to moderate this portion of the site, but would be more than willing to cecede that position to any of you more learned cohorts out there. All I'm wanting to do is HELP....that's all.

......time to take a breath.....ahhhh hooooo......

warm regards,

Tread.

-- Edited by Treadhead at 16:28, 2006-02-18

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micky


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RE: WWI Modeling..."Tipping Points" and Aftermarket...Discussion?
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Hi Treadhead and Peter,


I would like to kickoff this splended idea by giving you these plans I've found.


Airfix magazine Feb1982:Carriage, field 60pdr. B.L. Mk2. Full side/front/rear and above views.


Airfix mag. June1982: B.L 6inch 26CWT. Howitzer. Full side/front/rear and above views.


Military Modelling May1975: Big Bertha. Full side/front/rear and above views.


Military Mod. Nov/Dec1979 The Paris Gun.


I only have Nov issue which has Front and side view only, not sure if Dec issue has more drawings?


Military mod. May1986: 9.2inch B.L siege Howitzer Mk1. Full side/front/rear and above views.


Military Mod. Dec1988: B.L 6inch 26CWT. Howitzer.


Full side/front/rear and above views. (same drawing as in Airfix mag. June1982)


 



-- Edited by micky at 21:15, 2006-02-18

-- Edited by micky at 21:54, 2006-02-18

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Centurion


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A good model for an archive might be a book that was published in very limited addition some years ago. It is called 'A source book of WW1 aircraft' It is in alphabetic within country order and for each aircraft (including major sub types) it lists first books and then magazines and journals. Against each publication is the author and publisher and in the case of magazines etc the issue date. Each is coded to indicate if the entry contains text, photos, scale drawings. It covers many hundreds of aircraft.
I have found it both extremely useful when it has pointed me to something I am looking for and bloody frustrating when it indicates that a magazine that I cannot find a copy of anywhere contains just what I needed! It has a danger in that there is a tendency to asume that it contains everything and therefore not to go on looking if there is no worthwhile entry. I have found some exceedingly minor and esoteric aircraft not listed (but not as many as one can count on one's hand) and occasionaly turned up a reference to a listed aircraft in a book not quoted in its pages (again very rarely). One of its short comings is that there is no way of notifying the author when this occurs so that it can be updated - a forum is a much better vehicle.Therefor I'm all in favour of such an source list for tanks, artillery, small arms etc etc.
However organising such a work so as to be useful could take an awful amount of someones time unless the data can be stored in some form of database structure.

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Roger Todd


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Absolutely, Robert/Centurion, a database structure would be the only practicable way to compile and organise it. MAFVA use a straightforward Excel spreadsheet for their index of Tankette's articles and plans, I would have thought something like that would be sufficient - anything more complex is really going to take up someone's time.


Now there's the question of structure...



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Peter Kempf


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I am myself a HTML-man, but not an Excel-man. Anybody out there, who would be willing to administer this project Excel-wise? Roger?

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/Peter Kempf
Treadhead


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Howdy Fellas,

It's superb to see some 'shoulder-to-shoulder' starting to form about these ideas Peter and I were kickin' around It's obviously something I feel strongly about {hence the severe typer's cramp I incurred } and am very happy to see the support for it grow.

Now, just to show that I'm not full of 'vapors' about all of this, I will volunteer to assemble all of the submitted information using Excel. I certainly don't claim to know every nook-and-crannie of Excel but I use it on a pretty much regular basis at work {and even a locally written variant of it as well}. So, if someone else can handle the HTML side of the Farthing I think we have the basis to begin this thing
But the last thing I want to do is step on anyone's toes here, so if there's some older member you guys would prefer, I would understand.

Tread.

-- Edited by Treadhead at 16:56, 2006-02-19

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Centurion


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Ah ha a volunteer!


Treadhead I'm in the process of producing a source index based on my own library on Excel I'm about two thirds through the books and than I start on the magazines. I'm happy to donate this data as starter. Give me a day and I should have finished the books that relate to vehicles, tanks etc. Better make sure that my format fits. Currently I have a source sheet and a bibliography sheet.


The source sheet has the following fields:


1.Country - eg GB for Great Britain
Name - eg Mark V* Supply
2.Type - eg Tank, Truck, A Car etc
3.Publication Name - eg Kampf Panzer
4.Ref - Eg B21
5.Type - B= Book, P= Pamphlet format, M= Magazine
6.Issue - used for magazines
7.Content - T=text, P=one or more photos, I=illustration, Dn=drawing with n being the number of views, C=cross section or cut away
8.Comments


The bibliography ties into the ref no and gives detrails of the publication (Name, author , publisher, publication date,language)


I've got about 350 entries so far - any use?


 


 



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Roger Todd


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Sounds good. Treadders, it doesn't matter, IMHO, if you're not redhot with Excel, as it only needs a very straightforward type of sheet. Simply make enough headings to cover everything.


I'd say something like the following headings, nicked from Centurion but modified, should suffice:



  1. Country
  2. Name
  3. Type
  4. Book
  5. Magazine
  6. Pamphlet
  7. Other
  8. Author
  9. Publisher
  10. Publication Date
  11. Language
  12. ISBN (if known)
  13. Text
  14. Drawing(s)
  15. Photo(s)
  16. Plan(s)
  17. Scale
  18. Comments

You may want to add more, but I think each piece of information should have its own heading and, thus, column, rather than lumping several into one - it makes searching far easier.


MAFVA's Tankette index gives some idea of the sort of thing I'm thinking of (granted, it's for only one publication): http://www.mafva.org.uk/Excel/TanketteIndex.xls



-- Edited by Roger Todd at 15:48, 2006-02-20

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Centurion


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This is too simple a database to start going into things like normalisation and 3rd normal form but from a very practical standpoint Roger's format used on a spread sheet will involve large amounts of duplicate data items and hence far more keying in than is necessary. If you think bout it there may be many records for the same publication  and if on every record you have to put things like language, author and publisher then you are creating a lot of extra work. Much better to have a simple reference  to the publication and a seperate sheet with the publications on with no duplication. If you create seperate fields for book, magazine, pamphlet etc it will all become too wide to fit on a screen so any used has to do lots of scrolling - easier to distinguish by having a simple single field with a B for book, P for Pamphlet, M for Magazine. This also makes sorting easy if you want to list out say just the magzine entries and avoids having to restructure the whole thing if you decide you need another catagory (its easy to add a code but a so and so if you have to start adding more columns of fields.) The same principle applies to drawings, plans photos text (and what about illusrations, cross sections etc?)

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Roger Todd


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There would be no duplicate entries whatsoever, because any information either absent or not needed simply leaves a blank cell. For example, if it's a book, you're not going to fill in the pamphlet and magazine cells, are you? Likewise for, say, an article with only plans; you leave photos and text blank. As for being too wide, yes, if you want to display all the columns. But if, say, you were only looking for magazine articles, you'd hide the book and pamphlet columns, along with language and anything else you weren't looking for. The point of my suggestion for a single spreadhseet that covers all categories was simply so as to avoid having to manage several different spreadsheets with partial information scattered hither and yon.


Say, for example, you want to sort in one place all tabulated information on the Mark I tank - some of it is in magazines, some in pamphlets, some in books; some may be only photos, some only plans, some only drawings, some combinations of all three. Now, if you have three different spreadsheets for books, magazines and pamphlets, how do you easily look up all sources for the Mark I in one go?


But, at the end of the day, it's not my project.



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Centurion


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Roger Todd wrote:

There would be no duplicate entries whatsoever, because any information either absent or not needed simply leaves a blank cell. For example, if it's a book, you're not going to fill in the pamphlet and magazine cells, are you? Likewise for, say, an article with only plans; you leave photos and text blank. As for being too wide, yes, if you want to display all the columns. But if, say, you were only looking for magazine articles, you'd hide the book and pamphlet columns, along with language and anything else you weren't looking for. The point of my suggestion for a single spreadhseet that covers all categories was simply so as to avoid having to manage several different spreadsheets with partial information scattered hither and yon. Say, for example, you want to sort in one place all tabulated information on the Mark I tank - some of it is in magazines, some in pamphlets, some in books; some may be only photos, some only plans, some only drawings, some combinations of all three. Now, if you have three different spreadsheets for books, magazines and pamphlets, how do you easily look up all sources for the Mark I in one go? But, at the end of the day, it's not my project.
Sorry Roger youve  completely misunderstoodd. If I have a book and it has references to say 15 different tanks, armoured cars etc then you will need 15 rows of cells listing those references (assuming I'm using a simple spread sheet and not a relational database). if each row needs to include the publisher, language etc etc thats a duplication which you don't need if you have a list of books and a simple cross reference. The point about Magazine, book etc is if you use a seperate cell for each then if you a) want to sort into magazines, books etc it makes the sort less simple, and b) if you decide later you want to add some extra categories you have to start adding extra columns of cells. I'm not talking at all about having different spread sheets for books, mags etc. If you read my posting I'm talking about having one sheet in a single workbook for all the sources and a scond sheet (in the same workbook)f or all the publication details. Believe me this is much simpler. All the references say to  mark I Male are on one spread sheet (regardles of which publication they are in) and its only if one wants to look into the details of any specific publication that one flips to the second sheet. I could go on. This is extemely basic DB design. I've been designing IT systems professionally for well over 25 years. Why not wait a couple of days and I'll send the spread sheet I've put together to Treadhead and you (and anyone else who is interested). If the structure seems difficult then I leave those involved to change it how they will. However having now entered some 470 entries (and I havn't started on military modeller, Airfix etc etc yet) believe me the less cells the better.

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Roger Todd


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Centurion wrote:






Sorry Roger youve  completely misunderstoodd...


Why not wait a couple of days and I'll send the spread sheet I've put together to Treadhead and you (and anyone else who is interested).






Probably...


And:


By far the best idea.


Couldn't you just upload it using 'add a file'?



-- Edited by Roger Todd at 15:07, 2006-02-21

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Centurion


Legend

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Roger Todd wrote:

Couldn't you just upload it using 'add a file'?-- Edited by Roger Todd at 15:07, 2006-02-21
I thought as treadhed has volunteered he might wish to 'play' with it before it becomes public property. From experience once you release something like this it becomes a problem modifying the structure. as the world and its wife then starts aruing about it.

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Centurion


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Gentlemen


I've completed (almost) going through my collection of books and magazines and extracting the references to WWI material. I now have a spread sheet with some 550 entries tha - if we have a copy of thet I an donating as a starter for the service that Treadhead has volunteered to manage. I enclose a web page version  but am restricting sending the actual editable spreadsheet to Peter (as Landships supremo), Tim (as forum moderator) and of course Treadhead. (I've got Peter and Tim's not sure about yours Treadhead). The reasons for this are not sinister but as follows.


1. These gentlemen need to be happy with the format and might want to develop something completely new or ammend this version
2. Version control. There should only be one copy in use (this being the one that Treadhead manages) and I'm sure he and Peter  will establish how this gets updated.


Now a caveat. I'm happy to donate this material but I don't want to be seen as the forum's archivist. Yes I do have copies of all the publications listed and I can and will help out here and there but please don't deluge me with requests for a scan of this and a photcopy of that. Apart from some serious copyright issues that could arise I have some access problems regarding the magazines. I have an awful lot (of which only those with WWI material are shown here) and they are kept in stacked file transfer boxes in my library. It takes time to retrieve things. I don't want to seem to be a candidate for cumudgeon of the year but I just don't have the facilites. If some one can think of an easy (and legal) way to make the material readily available I'm happy to help.


The spreadsheet its self is basic, against my natural instincts I've followed the KIS principle. The whole thing is an Excel workbook with three pages. Page 1 'Heavy' contains references to material on Tanks,vehicles and artillery (field guns and up). Page 2 'Weapons' covers pistols rifles machine guns etc up to and including  trench mortars, Page 3 'Biblio' Provides more detail on the individual publications themselves. There are three tags at the bottom of the screen that allow one to flip back and forth between the pages. This structure has saved duplicating over 2,000 items of data


The layout of heavy and weapons is identical with the following fields


1. Nationality - the country in which the item was built.
2. The name of the item - eg. Renault FT17, Stokes Mortar etc
3. What it is - eg. Tank, SPG, TM (Trench Mortar) etc.
4. The name of the publication in which it is found - eg. AM (Airfix Magazine), Tanks etc
5. A reference number to uniquely identify the publication (in case we ever get two different books with the same name)
6. The issue date (for magazines) eg Sept 1998
7. The contents coded (T=Text, P=Photograph(s), I=Illustration, C=Cross section, D=drawing). Drawing refers to an orthaganol projection and I've added a number to show the number of views provided (This can be up to 5 - Left side, right side, front, back and plan) although its rare to get many that detailed). Some reference will have everything some may be restricted to just a drawing or just text and a photograph. You might need to look up more than one source to collect all the info you need
8. Comments. I've used this to put in things like the scale of the drawings if this is one of the conventional ones (1:76,1:72, 1:48, 1:35, 1:32*). I did think of having a seperate scale field but then found that some references have more than one scale! and I wanted to keep it simple. Most drawings in fact are not in any of these as I think the publishers just enlarged or shrank them to fit the space available. Interestingly enough I didn't find one in 1:35. I've added some additional comments about the quality of the material where this seemed relevant.


* According to Finagle's General Theory (the universe tends to the maximum of perversity) whichever scale a particular drawing is in it won't be the one you want.


When you have located  a reference that you want to follow up you can find out more about the publication by clicking on the biblio tab. This takes you to a much smaller sheet where you can find the author, publisher and pulication date (if known) as well as the type of publication (B=Book, P=Pamphlet (for example the Belona Prints), M= Magazine (monthly), BM= Magazine (bi monthly), A=Annual)


So its up to everbody else now to fill in the gaps I know I've left in this source index.


OOps that didn't work so instead here is The Spreadsheet but without the password it can only be opened as read only. This way I only need to send Tim, Peter and Treadhead the password. 



-- Edited by Centurion at 16:54, 2006-02-23

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Tim R


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Centurion


   Looks like you have put some serious thought into this, If you will please email me the password again, my email has been acting up, and I believe it put you email in my trash.


All the Best


Tim R


   



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Centurion


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While I'm waiting for Treadhead to take over I've addd a few more references.


Note you can all READ this work book by clicking the read only button on the prompt when you open the file.


 



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