Any idea on which colour the curvy lines would have been painted on? Would they have been black and painted inside in different colours like manyWW1 camouflage examples? And the identity and location of this tank? I see no weapons... but it's possible that this one is a German "Beute"?
I should have pointed up as well, that this image shows the very sad remains of some men who have fallen around this oddly painted machine. It's always a sobering realization for me to take into account that our dear hobby is not only assembling tiny detailed models of ancient vehicles, but also an evocation of a tragedy of mankind. As a modeller and a history afficionado, I can't help but think how many lives the real vehicles and weapons we like to represent in miniature have costed. Not in Pounds Sterling or Marks, but in the most dear price any nation can pay. Photos like these also reminds us that any person, all his stories, all his loves and hates and anything he owned and would have had; can be reduced of a heap of dirty rags in a pool of mud in a matter of seconds. Perhaps this is too much to ponder while researching how to paint a 1:72 plastic kit, but I believe that being aware of th wase of war -of any war- is one of the most valuable things these hobby of us have taught me. With this additional comment on my original post, I think that I could frame my attempt of research into a greater scheme. May all of us learn a thing or two from our tiny plastic models.
-- Edited by d_fernetti on Monday 22nd of December 2014 03:35:17 PM
Looking at the equipment that's scattered around, there does appear to be a German helmet & a KAR98K. The remains of the unfortunates are wearing jack boots, not puttees, so they're German dead.
No signs of any markings on it, I'd expect if it was a Beutepanzer, there'd be large crosses, no sign of them.
Balance of probabilities suggest it's still in British colours, the corpses are of German infantry, trying to shelter in its lea.
I can't help with the main question asked, but this is not a Beute tank. It is 2567 B38 "Bear" lost on 22 August 1917. It wasn't recovered and was still there until at least 1924, so there are many photos of it.
The location is given as "Zillebeke, Gheluvelt Road". It is difficult to imagine Germans taking pictures there in 1917. So, most probably, this picture, and a bunch of others showing the tank and German soldiers, were taken in 1918, after the British had evacuated the terrain of the 1917 Flanders battle.
Responding to PzKpfw E's observations: the rifle in the pic is a Gew 98; not a Kar98k. The Kar98k was a WW2 issue rifle. Forgive my pettiness, but a misnomer of this magnitude is comparable to referencing a famous French tank as an FT 17.
Hello
This pattern of curvy dark lines can be seen on D 51 Deborah ( On the sponsons) at the battle of Cambrai 20 nov 17 ( Book Gibot / Gorczinsky page 144)
Also in the osprey new vanguard 133 related to the MK IV , page 44 , the picture is showing a male tank ( 1918 ) with sponson painted the same.
There is also a picture of a C battalion female tank with the same camouflage ( I need to find it...)
This camouflage is definitely " British " .
I would say color can be : dark grey ( As primer paint ) , dark green ( artillery ) or black ( My opinion , it's just the mud fading it)
Best regards
Olivier
Hello
Something for the modellers , regarding the picture:
Have a look regarding the way the unditching beam is stored.....
Seems to have 2 " sacrificial " holders.
I mean that the beam is stowed on the rails , not chained . Typical of B bataillon ( IE : Bally Hackle and Black Harrow in Fontaine notre dame 23 nov 17)
2 pieces of steels connected in the stowage box are holding it. Once the beam " running" , the 2 holders will be damaged...not re usable.( And have a look the beam have slide on the side....nothing to stabilise the translation)
Reason why you can see with other bataillons 2 triangles riveted on the rails at the back ( For holding the weight and re usable as the beam slide on it without torning the device...) with a pipe connected between the 2 rails on the aft of the stowage box to connect 2 chains to stabilise the translation of the beam.
So for the modellers of B bataillon : Holder for beam is different from others bataillons . There was at least 2 ways to hold the beam.
Good modelling
Olivier
Interesting, I assumed that the beams were held in place just by the same chains that later were used to attach them to the tracks. Here I enlarged and manipulated the image to show better what I understand are the "holders" or "supports". Is this correct? I also detected a detail I haven't seen before.... a German knife stuck in the track! Something posed by the photographer, I would say.
Hello
Regarding the beam supports , you are correct. ( Your indication on the picture).
There was at least 2 ways to store the beam:
- As per the picture ( Might have been the first design , still used by some bataillons during Cambrai).
- As per described previously ( Beam more backward , an upgrade of the design , the pipe between the rails and the stoppers / holders riveted on rails) See illustration page 50 of book " great war tank " , Haynes , D. Fletcher.
On the same page , D.Fletcher is describing as " revised position", mentioning ropes , I am more in favour of chains.
The chains connecting the beam to the clamps are not the chains supposed to be used for hanging / maintaining the beam. Otherwise how could you manipulate them ?. The few pictures with the large chains wrapped around the rails have confused lot of people.
The knife seems to be a german bayonet.
There is still a lot to discover...
Best Regards
Olivier
This cammo scheme involved the use of black lines over the single colour background,( Brown or Grey, take your pick !) the original idea was to disguise the gunners vision slits on the sponsons as German snipers were found to be aiming for them. The scheme is often seen as straight black lines painted horizontally through the slits or a "Z" painted between the upper and lower slits. Some crews went further and decorated the whole sponson , or, as in this case, the whole tank ! Note in this rather more artistic rendering, the black lines still cover the vision slits.
Hello
My answer might have confuse some people.
When I was talking of the dark grey , dark green , or black , that was only for the curvy lines , the main paint of the tank is brown.
The curvy pattern is not common. Straight lines are " classic" , even the french were using painted lines on Schneider chars d assaut.
Regards
Olivier
