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Post Info TOPIC: Some new(to me) pictures of Mark V from AWM


Lieutenant

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Some new(to me) pictures of Mark V from AWM
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Hello everyone,

 

recently looking through AWM website and found these two pics of Mark V with Australian troops.

There's 9192 "NEWRY" and another male called "ORPHEUS".

Their numbers from the collection are P09378.003 and P09114.026.

 

Hope they are of interest



-- Edited by R Simmie on Wednesday 31st of December 2014 01:41:06 AM

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R Simmie


Lieutenant-Colonel

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Australia had the Mark V in the equipment?



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PDA


Legend

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Nice find, Richard.

I think the tank is called "Morpheus" rather than "Orpheus". The "O" looks too far over to one side, and then when you peer intently at the photo a faint letter "M" appears! (Like one of those awesome Magic Eye pictures!)

Hedi, the Australians trained with the new Mark V tanks in preparation for the Battle of Hamel (4 July 1918), which went so well that (many books say) it completely changed Australians' opinions of tanks, 180°. (After the fiasco of Bullecourt (11 April 1917), Australians allegedly had vowed never to fight with tanks.)



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Legend

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Excellent eyes there PDA - now that you point it out, the faint "M" is indeed apparent. Somebody should tell the AWM.  The AIF under Gen Monash did indeed fight with British tanks at Hamel Wood and subsequently - Monash was a meticulous planner and instituted combined armour, artillery, air and infantry operations with a degree of precision which silenced all critics (and considerable numbers of the armed opposition) - even impressed King George who knighted him in the field.



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Legend

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Are we sure? Acc to James McWilliams (Amiens: Dawn of Victory, p. 175) and our own Munkeezulu https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/lists/mk-v-lists/9501-9600 , there was a Mk V* 9547 Orpheus, 15th Bn, A Coy, KO'd at Amiens.



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Legend

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There were in fact three tanks called Orpheus. The first, lost on 8 August 1918, is a bit confusing because primary sources give the commander's name variously as Burn or Brown. There is one record that links "Orpheus", O28 and "Burn" for 8.8.18. From another source we know that Burn's initial is M. Other tanks in the section are commanded by Herrington and Roberts. There is another record that links 9547 with a 2/Lt M Brown, but next to this name are Roberts and Herrington. Munkeezulu is assuming that Brown should read Burn but note that he admits that 9547 may be wrong! I think he's got it right, however.

The reason I think he's right is that "Orpheus II" and "Orpheus III" were all commanded by 2/Lt M Burn MC MM.

Unlike 15th Battalion, 13th Battalion didn't leave us with a record of many of their tank's names, so I have no idea if "Morpheus" is the name of a tank or not. I take the point about the positioning of the name, but despite fiddling with the contrast and brightness of the photo I can't make out a "M" before the "O".

In summary, the tank in the photo might be 9547, which probably was Orpheus. Or it might be Orpheus II or Orpheus III, neither of which we know the serial numbers for. Or it might be a previously unknown tank called "Morpheus". None of which helps much.

Gwyn

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Legend

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A slight puzzle then or at least a question mark. The AWM is having a bit of a bad hair night tonight but IIRC photograph P09114.026 was from the collection of a Private in the 1st Field Ambulance, 1st Infantry Battalion, 1 Division AIF. I had a brief look at his on-line service papers at the NAA last night but found nothing giving a clue about date and location of the snap, if indeed it does relate to his own service (which was punctuated by wounds and illness). Maybe the 1 Battalion war diaries on-line at the AWM will have something useful, when the site is fully up and running again.



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Legend

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I have photos of two 13th Battalion tanks, "Mudslosher" (great name) and "Miss Me". Both names are painted in neat white letters on their horns, and in the latter's case not on the glacis plate. It makes me even less convinced this might be "Morpheus".

Gwyn

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Legend

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I think the M is an optical illusion, plus the tank is slightly at an angle which may make the name seem as though its less central then it really is... kind of appropriate though.... 



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Corporal

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Depending on the type face used the h in Orpheus is closer to the center line of the tank than p and h center (more or less) of the word morpheus.


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Hello everyone,
Glad that the pictures have kicked off an interesting discussion.
I attach two more of mark V on railway carriages. One has clear view of markings on these Parrot carriages. Also note the spuds on one Mark V

All best for new Year
RS



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R Simmie


Legend

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Just to revert for a tick - 622 Private Herbert Vincent Reynolds was the man, returned to unit in France from hospital April 1918 and repatriated October 1918. The Brigade war diaries seem to have the most information (1 Bde AIF) but would take some time to sort through. A few snippets from the first foray into them (attack on Chipilly 9/8/1918):


Addendum to 1st Australian Infantry Brigade Order No. 108 (7/8/1918)
"Tanks are marked by Battalion colours of the Battalion with which they are operating. Should a Unit require special tank assistance to overcome any strong point the following signals are:-
(1) Smoke grenade fired in the direction of the strong point.
(2) Steel helmet placed on top of the bayonet and hand pointing in the direction of the strong point.


Elsewhere it notes tanks also carried the red and white band markings - used also by 17th Armoured Car Battalion, operating (apparently independently) in the area at the same time.

Then for the attack on Chuignolles village/wood/valley 21/8/1918 there is reference to fighting support for the Australians by 3 sections of the 2nd Tank Battalion, 1 section each to AIF 1st and 4th Battalions with the third operating down the centre keeping touch with the others. Battalion colours were Black on green rectangle 1st Bn, white on green rectangle 4th. Tanks provided supply services too, whether supply tanks or not is not clear from that source.

Just scratching the surface, quite a few other operations in those busy months not examined - and of course Reynolds (and 1st Field Ambulance) might be a complete red herring. But is the 2nd Tank Battalion, by any luck of the draw, of any significance in relation to Orpheus/Morepheus?



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Legend

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Sadly not. Morpheus would be a 13th Battalion name, and Orpheus was a 15th Battalion name.

Gwyn

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