Landships II

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: First use of armored cars in history


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
First use of armored cars in history
Permalink   


Who was first to use armored cars? Most sources state it was Italians in Libya in 1912. However looks like Spaniards were a little faster: http://armoredcars-ww-one.blogspot.com/2013/03/spanish-schneider-brille-armored-car.html But what about French in Morocco around 1907? They did use unarmored machinegun cars there, maybe there was also at least one armored car? I read somewhere that they bought Austro-Daimler armored car and sent it to Morocco. But maybe Russians were first to use Charron armored car(s) in 1905 as urban pacification vehicle(s): http://landships.info/landships/car_articles.html?load=car_articles/Charron.html Maybe Ivan, our expert on Russian armored cars could write something more. Any other ideas?



-- Edited by Albert on Wednesday 6th of May 2015 10:47:54 PM

__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 31
Date:
Permalink   

Hi, I had a copy of the BRITISH "army & Navy" magazine for the Boer war, and it showed an Armoured up Steam Traction engine, pulling a set of Armoured Wagons, with rifle loop holes in them, and there was a series of photos of this, as it crashed through a wooden bridge, or the bridge more rightly collapsed under its weight...
While I doubt it would qualify as an Armoured Car, I am sure that I would qualify as an AFV... and defiantly in a War Zone, though wetter it ever went into action is unknown...
I am sure the issue was 1899... (I lost my collection in the 2011 Floods in Brisbane)
any members have access to this magazine series...
(it was an amazing Magazine series, as it actually had photos of shooting of Prisoners, before and after, not during, or an African chief that was supplying support to the Boers. the only other early photo I have seen of the shooting of Prisoners is on Gallipoli, where turkis snipers were shot for not wearing official military uniforms)
regards, Sandy

__________________
"i'll get it right, eventually"


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
Permalink   

Sandy, thank you very much for the reply. I know about vehicles you mentioned, but they were not used in battle.

 

For now it looks to me that first use of armoured cars was in Russia in 1905, as urban pacification vehicles. I'd like to know more about it, help from Russian experts is needed - when, where, how many cars were used, what were the results, did they shoot or they were just used to frighten people?

 

Other incidents I know of when armored cars were used before the Great War:

 

- maybe French armored car(s) in Morocco in 1907?;

- civil war in Turkey in 1908 and/or 1909 (4 or 5 Hotchkiss armored cars bought from France - all previous sources state there were 4, but Francois Vauvillier wrote in his "The Encyclopedia of French Tanks and Armoured Vehicles 1914-1940" that there were 5 such vehicles) - again no details known;

- Spaniards in Morocco in 1912 (probably 2 Schneider-Brillie armored personnel carriers produced in France in 1909);

- Italians in Libya in 1912 (2 Fiat armored cars, used in convoys, not sure whether they had battle contact with enemy).

 

I hope someone can add some details, especially colleagues from Russia and France.

 



__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 46
Date:
Permalink   

Hello all!

I found this article regarding pre-WWI Russian armoured cars; as it is a Russian source, it should be reliaqble on the subjec: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B7%D0%B5-%D0%A8%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD

It's about the Charron-Nakazhidze armoured car, the autor states that it was the first serial built Russian model and that there were no further attemps to develope others because of: 1st lack of support from Russian military authorities and 2nd the early death of its designer (he was murdered in a bomb attack to the Russian prime minister's (Stolypin) home in 1906).

The Charrons enjoyed a peaceful tour of the westernmost Russian Empire: Petersburg, Kiev, Vilna and Warsaw, but saw no action at all. So the Spanish Schneiders retain the honours smile

 

Regards to all.



__________________


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
Permalink   

AgaPablo wrote:
The Charrons enjoyed a peaceful tour of the westernmost Russian Empire: Petersburg, Kiev, Vilna and Warsaw, but saw no action at all. So the Spanish Schneiders retain the honours smile

 

Thank you!

If it's true that Charrons in reality didn't fight, then it's still possible that French in Morocco or Turks during civil war used armored cars in battle for the first time in history.

Four of five French Hotchkiss armored cars were bought by Sultan of Turkey, but they were captured by Young Turks and used against Sultan's soldiers. No details are known, but it looks like this is the only reliable piece of information about early Turkish armored cars! Turkish armored cars during WW1 are a completely unknown subject! What about these 4 or 5 Hotchkiss armored cars - were they used during WW1? Were there any other armored cars, if yes then how many and where were they used? No idea. Some British sources state that British troops did meet Turkish armored car(s), but no details are given and it's possible that in reality these were some softskin vehicles.



__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Field Marshal

Status: Offline
Posts: 486
Date:
Permalink   

AgaPablo wrote:

Hello all!

I found this article regarding pre-WWI Russian armoured cars; as it is a Russian source, it should be reliaqble on the subjec: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B7%D0%B5-%D0%A8%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD

It's about the Charron-Nakazhidze armoured car, the autor states that it was the first serial built Russian model and that there were no further attemps to develope others because of: 1st lack of support from Russian military authorities and 2nd the early death of its designer (he was murdered in a bomb attack to the Russian prime minister's (Stolypin) home in 1906).

The Charrons enjoyed a peaceful tour of the westernmost Russian Empire: Petersburg, Kiev, Vilna and Warsaw, but saw no action at all. So the Spanish Schneiders retain the honours smile

 

Regards to all.


 Quatsch. Only one C.G.V. Armoured Car was in Russia. No Charron-Nakashidze - correct name is Charron, Girardot et Voith (C.G.V.) . Michael Nakashidze was not constructor, he is dealer. Others two C.G.V. from Nakashidze order buy Germans, others comming from Russian border retoure to France.  



__________________
Джорж Дебил-Ю Буш козел вонючий!


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
Permalink   

Ivan wrote:
Only one C.G.V. Armoured Car was in Russia.

 Thank you! smile Was is used before or during WW1 in Russia? Was it really used as urban pacification vehicle in 1905? If it was, then did it shoot or was used just to scare people?

And did Germans or French use them in battle during WW1?



__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Field Marshal

Status: Offline
Posts: 486
Date:
Permalink   

Albert wrote:
Ivan wrote:
Only one C.G.V. Armoured Car was in Russia.

 Thank you! smile Was is used before or during WW1 in Russia? Was it really used as urban pacification vehicle in 1905? If it was, then did it shoot or was used just to scare people?

And did Germans or French use them in battle during WW1?


 In 1908 CGV was decommissioned in Russia, rebuilt as a normal car. He has never been used, even in the riots 1906-1907 not. That's liberal lies (yes, even then there was!).

In 1912 Amur-Rail-Road a Benz, who was able to drive on such machines, as well as on road. That's all. Next armored cars came in September 1915 - Russo-Balt Izhorski.

Image: Benz from Amur Rail Road (not military), built 1912, photos from 1918 (Civil war)



Attachments
__________________
Джорж Дебил-Ю Буш козел вонючий!


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
Permalink   

Ivan wrote:
Albert wrote:
Ivan wrote:
Only one C.G.V. Armoured Car was in Russia.

 Thank you! smile Was is used before or during WW1 in Russia? Was it really used as urban pacification vehicle in 1905? If it was, then did it shoot or was used just to scare people?

And did Germans or French use them in battle during WW1?


 In 1908 CGV was decommissioned in Russia, rebuilt as a normal car. He has never been used, even in the riots 1906-1907 not. That's liberal lies (yes, even then there was!).

In 1912 Amur-Rail-Road a Benz, who was able to drive on such machines, as well as on road. That's all. Next armored cars came in September 1915 - Russo-Balt Izhorski.

Image: Benz from Amur Rail Road (not military), built 1912, photos from 1918 (Civil war)


 

Thank you, I knew I could count on you! In case of Russo-Balts of course you meant 1914, not 1915.

 

So if Russian Charron wasn't used in 1905, then only two possibilities when armored cars could have been used before 1912 (when they were used by Spaniards and Italians) are:

- by French in Morocco (based only on info from one book that Austro-Daimler armored car was bought by French army and sent to Morocco, but there is no such info in "The Encyclopedia of French Tanks and Armoured Vehicles 1914-1940", so I doubt it);

- by Turks during civil war.

 

So if someone asked me who was first to use armored cars, I'd say that for sure Spaniards in 1912, followed by Italians and there is small chance that French in Morocco in 1907 and more possibly Turks during civil war in 1908 or 1909.

 



__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:
Permalink   

Gentlemen! There is a German armored car model Opel from 1906. What is your opinion on this issue. Sorry for my bad English.Yours.

__________________


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:
Permalink   

Opel 1906.Opel Cesarstwo Niemieckie.jpgOpel_Kriegswagen_f_r_h_here_Truppenf_hrer_1906.jpg



Attachments
__________________


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
Permalink   

This Opel wasn't used in battle before WW1 - that's for sure. Only one prototype was built in 1906. Most probably it wasn't used during WW1. This is only one example of many pre-WW1 armored cars which we know that existed, but we don't know what happened to them. Well, at least I don't know its fate.

 



-- Edited by Albert on Friday 26th of June 2015 11:45:22 AM

__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:
Permalink   

Well, the many designs we have too little information, even if the model of the German company Protos. Yours.German-Panzerauto-Protos-M1913.jpg



Attachments
__________________


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
Permalink   

Yes, Protos is interesting, it's a "new" thing, info about it can be found probably only in Rainer Strasheim's "Panzerkraftwagen" and on blog from which you took the photo.



__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:
Permalink   

Not only that, sometimes getting a new and interesting photograph based French model in May 1912 Morocco.Yours.262397.jpg



Attachments
__________________


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
Permalink   

The French used machinegun-armed cars in Morocco, but probably none of them was armored.



__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:
Permalink   

The first real armored car design was a model Austrian company Daimler 1904. We agree on this issue? Yours Chris.02 Austria 1912 y (2).jpg02 Austria 1912 y (1).JPG



Attachments
__________________


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
Permalink   

Yes, very good armored car, rotating turret, four wheel drive, good speed and hill-climbing. Only armor was too thin, it should be thicker, even at price of lower speed and worse hill-climbing. Does anyone know what happened to this armored car? I know it was probably sold to France in 1906 or 1907 (and maybe sent to Morocco, but I'm not sure), but what next? I've never read or heard of it taking part in the Great War, so it was probably scrapped or destroyed before 1914.

I think I haven't seen these photos of Austro-Daimler armored car, where did you find them?



-- Edited by Albert on Monday 29th of June 2015 11:34:59 AM

__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:
Permalink   

For many years the subjects I'm interested in armored vehicles until 1939, collect publications in different languages.

__________________


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:
Permalink   

Second place CGV French model. This vehicle can be armored handcar railway....

 

.6640238.jpg



__________________


Brigadier

Status: Offline
Posts: 278
Date:
Permalink   

kamo200 wrote:

Second place CGV French model. This vehicle can be armored handcar railway....

 

.6640238.jpg


 

On this drawing they are simply using two removable steel channels for crossing ditches (they were normally placed over the rear wheels). This car wasn't able to ride on rails, as far as I know.



__________________
Sorry for my bad English ;)


Sergeant

Status: Offline
Posts: 45
Date:
Permalink   

CGV.jpgParzerautomobile-Daimler-1909.jpgRails to cross the trenches are located on the side of the armored car CGV. In my next place is occupied by German Daimler in 1909 ..



Attachments
__________________
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard