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Post Info TOPIC: Krupp 130mm L26 Mod.1902 heavy gun - Argentine Army


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Krupp 130mm L26 Mod.1902 heavy gun - Argentine Army
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Hi

Krupp 130mm L26 Mod.1902 heavy gun - Argentine Army

 

 Another rare Krupp adopted by the Argentine Army isa Krupp 130mm L26 Mod.1902 heavy gun, was one of the very first heavy German guns having a using hydrodynamic brakes and recoil recuperator system.-

This shows the tendency Argentina to request the Krupp models with particular characteristics, breech block of different models and origins that were not always the Krupp factory designs and bore underused by other countries.-

There is a barrel preserved in the Historical Museum of the Army in Ciudadela- Buenos Aires.

 

Krupp gun Mod.1902 130mmL26 in the transport carriage - Museo Histórico del Ejercito en Ciudadela

 Advanced design for this time, used the breech block "system Maxim- Nordenfelt" factory, the same model as the Krupp1898 (was the last Krupp whit this breech block in the Argentine Army)

He had the possibility to target in elevation and direction, and its carriage was type boxtrail.-

 There are many photographs of these weapons in service and parades

Krupp. 130mm/ L26 Modelo 1902  - magazine “Caras y Caretas”.

 

 

Krupp. 130 mm L26 Mod.1902. Fotos: Caras y Caretas 1933.

 

Krupp cannon 130 mm L.26 site mod. 1902 - photo c. 1910 –

http://fdra.blogspot.com.ar/

 

 

Krupp. 130mm/ L26 Modelo 1902 and FWD B3 1916 (??) - “Caras y Caretas”. año 1926

 

 

Krupp 130 mm carried by trucks FWD

This photo appears on several websites, but you cannot read from who is the original (they someone covered)

 

The Krupp 130mm L26 Mod.1902, is earlier even to the 10cm K04 L30 mod.1904 and contemporary at the howitzer 15cm sFH mod.1902.-

 Clearly, the heavy gun Krupp 130mm L / 35 mod 1909 is a derivative of the Argentine model, with a real bore of 135mm and with a longer barrel.

Delivered in the Feldartillerie units, the called “13 cm Kanone” or “13 cm K09” gun was adopted officially in 1909, and was usually assigned a mission of anti-artillery and harassment fire, by staying out of range of enemy fire

The only issue with this gun at the war outbreak was its too little availability and it was not produced in huge quantities afterwards. The reason for this was the choice of the German Headquarters to reserve the industry capacity to the new anti-artillery guns 15 cm L/30, L/35 and L/40. 
I know there two “Krupp 13 cm L/35 K09” complete preserved (there could be more).

In the pictures of these two German guns model 1909 you can see the similarity with the Argentine model 1902 (Argentina again put into service weapons that others would use later)

 

 

New Zealand – Wellington - Newtown Park Memorial

http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canons/ImagesCanons/Allemagne/Lourde/english_FC130L35Wellington.html

 

 

 Entebbe, Wakiso Distrito, Uganda: war memorial in the Portal Road - Fried. Krupp AG 130 mm L35 modelo 1909,

http://www.travel-images.com/uganda2.html

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Colonel

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This shows the tendency Argentina to request the Krupp models with particular characteristics, breech block of different models and origins that  .

 

This might have been true of the 75 mm. field guns mod. 1895,1898 and the mountain guns 75 mm. mod. 1896 and 1898, but not applicable to the Krupps 130swhich were a personal gigt of Kaiser Wiliam II to the Argentine Republic..



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Hi

 

If it was a gift or the Argentine Army paid it, it does not change the fact that it was not a model series of Krupp. Its barrel length of 26 calibers and breech block "Maxim-Nordenfelt system" of British origin in a German-made weapon make it different from other models of the "10cm/13cm family". And meet the requirements of the Argentine Army to use the same systems as their field guns, mountain gun and howitzers in those years

 

 

 

Also field guns Krupp 75mm / L30 models 1896Na 1905 and Argentine Model 1909 had breech block Welin type of British origin applied to guns manufactured in Germany, Krupp only used it in the Argentine weapons and the Japanese howitzer Krupp 15cm Type38 , which also made them special

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Hya!
There is no "IF" about it but it comes from German Diplomatic Archives-and while there's ample proof of the BNordenfelt breeches (of Ebgklish origin, but made by Krupp unde license, alicense partly paid by the Argentie government, there is no record oin either side of the ocean that states the -disc-screw breeches were modified for Argentina...
There is a recod of one 75mm gun (ONE) that was modified in Germany and shipped back to Argentina-the others (mod.1895,1898 and 1909 field 75's,and Mountain mod. 98 were fitted with Nordenfelt dis "A priori" The Krupp mod. 1905 was actually a modified Krup 1898 refitted with shield,hydraulic brakes etc. in Argentine Arsenals.
Cheers!

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Hi

 

If confuses two different types of breech block used in different weapons, and has not been set at the pictures where those differences are not shown to understand what their reports are telling you

There is no reliable report that would contradict a weapon preserved

I have nothing more to say

 

Regards 

 

Eduardo



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Colonel

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I beg to differ: there's one reliable German diplomatic report tat even gives the quantity of the siege guns donated by the Kaiser to The Argentine. The Argentine Army designated as as a siege gun cañón de sitio, it served along the Krupp 105 mm L.35 as a siege gun...It remained in service until the mid 1930s, when the newer Schneider models were beginning to arrive..They were still in reserve in 1944,but there wasn't any ammunition left for them...

Cheers



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Hi

 

Everything I wrote it up with pictures of guns preserved, their factory marks, etc. that they can see, touch and measure (I have done), or pictures of manual service of these weapons

For their part only presents comments, assumptions "reliable" reports, but has not shown nothing, no photos, any reports, nothing, only comments

Over the gun of 105mm, I do not have data that they were in service, much less to be kept in reserve until 1944, but we are not talking about them.

Until we see photos of these guns in service in my country, or copies of those documents, not sentences assigned to someone, your information is unreliable

 

I hope that kind of evidence to change his mind.

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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"Your" pictures include one of mine that I uploaded in another Forum years ago.  .The one that shows the Escuela de Tiro parading in the National Racing Track around 1900,

So,you have seen pictures of the gun in Argentina-but apparently you are not aware of it..-ther'ses another photo from my collections showing a battery of these guns c. 1917 in a firing exercise..seen pictures of these guns I will be glad to translate the German document (as I assume you don't posses the German language) you, as I did for the Historical Section of the Argentine Army-..



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Thursday 28th of April 2016 10:03:05 PM

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Hi

 

Those pictures are not mine and in each case have indicated where I found

The collection of magazine Caras y Caretas it is in a forum in the Hemeroteca Digital de la Biblioteca Nacional de España  so I is it difficult for the photo showing the battery in the exercise, you have given to the magazine, unless you have more than 100 years

I just put my trademark in the photos I took, as I find or buy copies, the real and

 

true of that picture remains of who took it.

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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RE: Krupp 130mm L26 Mod.1902 siege Argentine Army
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1) Everything I wrote it up with pictures of guns preserved, their factory marks, etc. that they can see, touch and measure (I have done), or pictures of manual service of these weapons..

2) For their part only presents comments, assumptions "reliable" reports, but has not shown nothing, no photos, any reports, nothing, only comments

3) Over the gun of 105mm, I do not have data that they were in service, much less to be kept in reserve until 1944, but we are not talking about them.

Until we see photos of these guns in service in my country, or copies of those documents, not sentences assigned to someone, your information is unreliable

 

4) I hope that kind of evidence to change his mind.

 Hya

As Jack the  Ripper once said : Let us take this apart.

Your No.3: I refer to the 130s being kept in reserve-not the 105mmL.35s..and I can provide you with An Argentine reference that you may check about the `05s and the 130s available in 1908..There's a picture of a 105 mm L.35 in a web site known as militariarg by the way..I cannot help the fact that you have not seen proof of their existence..

Your point No.2: "For their part" who are THEY? As far as the comments: Other than the photos which came from avarious spurces in the INTERNET,I do not see any documents on YOUR part.Just photos and suppositions...but not a single document I am not in the habit of posting primary documents "Pro bono"..But I did promise to translate one I copied by hand some years ago:26.4.1901 German Legation, Santiago : The Chilean governmet and senior Army fficials are rather upset because of the recent gift from His Majesty to the Argentine Republic-which involved  twelve 13cm. Belagerunggeschützen (siege guns). The Argentines have ordered ammunitions for these a few days ago.."

The quantity is also verified by Argentine recors reproduced in a multi-volume history of Argentnia published in 1962-I can give you that source when I go o my office tomorrow..

your information is unreliable

Just check my information from your side of the Ocean(once I quote the book and chapter available in your country) before you go on assuming....then we'll see.

Anybody can copy and paste from the INTERNET-.

I agree that the real owner of the photo is the one who actually took itor bought the book from which the photograph came from.I actually purchased book in a Flea Market in Germany years ago with the pciture of the 130mm on parade you uploaded,a picture I sent to my friend Arne some years ago, and he posted on that Argentine web-site (FDRA)-

4) I do not understand your point No.4 at all. what are you trying to say?.

Cheers

Gunther



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Major

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RE: Krupp 130mm L26 Mod.1902 heavy gun - Argentine Army
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Hi

 

I want to explain my work to collect information.

 

In my point nº3  I only say, that I have not registered any "cañón de sitio" of 105m

I cannot show that they not they were, then, you show that if they were.

If you have any pictures of this gun in service in the Argentine Army, show it.

 

As for the pictures that I present are in a great majority of mine, taken in museums and headquarters, and I do not need documents to tell me they are, if I can see them personally. I take data directly from those guns preserved and therefore can not be assumptions. When I take Internet information I do when I know who published it. I maintain contact with military, collectors, museum curators (sometimes with the museum director) and “foristas” what they show photos of other museums or pages of books on these subjects.

 

If I read engraved on a 75mm cannon FRIED.KRUPP. A.G. ESSEN 1905. Nº.32. 336Kg.

I do not need any documents indicate to me that is a Krupp 75mm gun manufactured in Essen in 1905 and its serial number is 32, so I'm not assuming but verifying that the Krupp 75mm 1905 were not modified old cannons but guns manufactured in Germany in that year for the Argentine Army as they have the Argentine Shield engraved on the breech block (type Welin no "Nordenfelt Maxim-type" as you mentioned). If the hassle is taken, you can see the photo of this canyon in the thread of 75mm Krupp Argentinos (that picture is also mine), or directly in the same gun in the “Museo de Armas de la Nación del Círculo Militar”.

 

I also buy books and manuals of our army weapons, and other military or collectors give me documents  interesting.

The photos of the canyon in another forum presented as Krupp 240mm in Zárate, I took it of the book of Burzio  the “Historia de la Escuela Naval Militar” a copy of my property (the copy, the book is of Burzio) and digital support could possibly  show a Armstrong 8 " but never a Krupp 240mm (or they cut a piece).

 

Moreover internet is very wide and as can be found false or incomplete information, can be found very good pages (some pay) that are used by Universities and the World Scientific Community (eg the Balseiro Institute, Central  Atomic Bariloche what ago)

The fact that the magazine Caras y Caretas have a place in the "Hemeroteca Digital Biblioteca Nacional de España"  does nothing more than protect an important historical material of my country, but the information and graphics correspond to the staff of that magazine in those years.

 

The No. 4 point refers to present only  comments regarding reports that does not show us, the fact highlight  it  with bold or  quotes do not give veracity, we could say that a "reliable alien report ... .." and we could not know whether it is true or not.

It is understood. - ??

 

I'm not accustomed to the inconducive discussions, I never have to leave a forum…… and do not think run that risk with a bad attitude

I believe that a forum brings together a group of people with a theme of common interest and not an area of competence and to advertise oneself.-

 

Respect and admire those who gather written or graphic information of these weapons, but it is not reasonable to discuss only based on mysterious sources

From now on I answer only specific comments and also reasonable

 

 

I ask please excuse  Mr.Administrators for leaving the specific topic of this thread, and at the same time thank you very much my promotion to Sergeant

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 30th of April 2016 08:42:35 PM

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Brunner88 wrote:


You seem to  labor under some severe misapprehension       

1) That because you are ignorant of a certain fact it does not exist..which only demonstrates a narrow point of view...

2) that I am here to educate you..for you "demand" proof of this,proof of that,well, I will do so for the sake of historical accuracy..

Simly because you've never heard the term siege gun applied to the Krupp 30 does not mean it was not so considered or referred to by the Argentine Army..I refer you to

a) Historia Argentina Contemporanéa: 1862-1930 (Editorail El Atené, Buenos aires, 1966) I refer you specifivcally to the chapter entitled "Ejército Nacional" by Gen/. Augusto C. Rodriguéz, and to be excat, page 354-356. It quotes a parliamentary discussion in which the mordenance available to the Argentine Army is listed in detail,Most partricularly under"Artillería de Sitio" (Siege Artillery)  he includes both the 105mm L.35 (which you didn't know was operated by the Argentine Army..) and the Krupp 130..If you need further details.Check the Spanish Enciclopedia Espasa Calpe,it;s a multi-volume set published ed c.. 1910-See the well etailed articles for Arillery and Cannon you'll find references to siege guns (including the Spanish 120) in The Chapter under Argentine Republic you'll find references to a Krupp 13cm siege gun..These l can quote as you can probably access the in any decent sized Argentine library

Now, these sources are not "Misterious" as you claim, but readily available

As far as the Krupp mod. 1905 75 mm piece preserved at Ciudadela,have you seen the sign that states that those guns were modified in Argentine arsenals which is there for all to see?

You already have one of my pictures of the Argentine Krupp 130 mm siege gun,the one which was taken an the National Hipodrome..As they say in Spanish,"Para muestra,solo hace falta un botón" (that's all the proof you need.

I need not apologize to anyone for my manners-nor for my references which are herewith qualified by sources even you will have accesss to. I have quoted my sources.Do you have any to cite (written ones that is  published sources and not taken from INTERNET or photograhs..If so,I'll like to see them quoted..

 

I have not attacked you personally,  while you have-you appear to be offended because my data contradicts yours. and that simply is not my problem...I have quoted two soures for my information-three including the German diplomatic  cable...De fide Officio Judicis nn Recipitur Quaestio,sed de Scentia sit error Juris sirve facti

In short,other than a few Internet pictures, where are your proofs? and I say this on behalf  os true historical accuracy,for other reason have I none.



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 30th of April 2016 10:03:06 PM

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Hi

I have already explained above. I do not pretend to be a professional topic, I do not deny or affirm anything (when I say “I do not have data” I think I'm clear, I do not say that did “not exist”) but what I show pictures that I took in museums, and no need of these documents reliable to know what we can physically see and touch (the oldest I have still a lot of negative and are not books or documents, much less internet) sources

If distrusted visit our museums or send a friend to do it.

In addition it seems ridiculous to have to accept the existence of Krupp 130mm, when I started the thread with a photo of the Argentine Army Historical Museum one of them preserved.

Respect and I admire those who make serious historical research, but I'm just showing what is now available to any fan of the subject.

Internet was born for military purposes and even today it is used for many of these purposes, but I think we continue to insist that my photos are from Internet already is annoying and those photos  they are there  is why I published them.

 

On the other hand it should not have cost much to provide references to what he said, so we can accept your comments.

The only canyon  Museo Histórico del Ejercito Argentino de Ciudadela with an indication (a cartel) that was modified in our arsenal is the Krupp 75mm "Cavalry" with "boxtrail" gun carriage ,that forista NUYT used in The Overvalwagen Forum: Argentina - Network54 (no Internet, I have the negative)

 

 

And it's the same gun that showed some notes above from one twin, but preserved in the Museum of Weapons of the Military Collegium of the Nación.-

Curiously despite having two copies preserved You did not ever mention.

 Is not on its "reliable reports" ???

They not were created spontaneously.

 

 

 

 

Who gave you the data misinterprets a 5 with 9, ask him to go back to the museum.

 

The rest of his comments do not deserve response

 

Regards

 

Eduardo

 

 



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Legend

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Any idea of how many 75mm Krupp guns were converted to box trail and rear-mounted trunnions?

It looks like a better engineered conversion than the Japanese Type 38 Kai guns.

Regards,

Charlie



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Hya:

 I distrust some of the signs I see In Museums,particuraly in Buenos aires, as I have seen several of the signs changed. I observed that to one of the ersons in charge, who obviously kew the subject, and he said that kids were always changing the signs around. So,I prefer to rely on public documents and works puiblished by progessional and well=known historians. 

You change your tune" If you indicated from the beginning that "You don't have any data" I would have understood and provided you with data you can verify yourself. There is another one of my photos of the Krupp 130 mm  in the Overwagen forum that you mentioned...

Now, check the souirces I've given you in any good Argentine library and you will se my point... The Krupp 130 was not considered a heavy gun. In Europe or the U.S. it would be considered a medium caliber gun at the time..a category which run from 105 to a55 mm. In Argentina the official army designation at the time was as follows:

Heavy artillery. Schenider mod. 1928 105mm L.30 gannon, Schneider 155 Mod. 1928 155 L.15 howitzer

Very Heavy Artilery (Muy Pesada) Shneider mod. 1928 155mm L.30 cannon,Shneider mod. 1928 220 mm mortar

If distrusted visit our museums or send a friend to do it.

I've been to this museums often enough and taken photos of what I required-Museums the world over tend to hire people with little or no experience..The Museo de Guera in Madid, for example has a photograph of an Iberia Douglas DC-2 captured by The Nationals (not Nationalists) during the Civil War, and the captions reads (or read) Duglas (sic) trimotor. Mueums in Argentia are no different

In addition it seems ridiculous to have to accept the existence of Krupp 130mm, when I started the thread with a photo of the Argentine Army Historical Museum one of them preserved.

Nobody disputes the existence of the Krupp 130s (how could I,have not two of the photos from my collections been publisghed) Simply I dispute the term "Heavy" when applied to a a gun that was rated by the argentines themselves as a siege gun. As I said,check the sources I mentioned.

Respect and I admire those who make serious historical research, but I'm just showing what is now available to any fan of the subject.

Internet was born for military purposes and even today it is used for many of these purposes, but I think we continue to insist that my photos are from Internet already is annoying and those photos  they are there  is why I published them.

 

On the other hand it should not have cost much to provide references to what he said, so we can accept your comments.

The only canyon  Museo Histórico del Ejercito Argentino de Ciudadela with an indication (a cartel) that was modified in our arsenal is the Krupp 75mm "Cavalry" with "boxtrail" gun carriage ,that forista NUYT used in The Overvalwagen Forum: Argentina - Network54 (no Internet, I have the negative)

The term"Cavalry gun" is a temporary Argentine obe: They were not originally cavalry guns, but field guns. The Krupp mod. 1909 75mm L.30 when replaced by the Bofors 75mm L.40 ,=mod. 1935 was replaced as both a cavalry gun" and an "infantry gun" IT WS NEITHER.

 

Again, a simple sign in a Museum starved of funds to maintain its collections (and rideen with scandals, such as the Museo de Armas de la Nacion, where some n.c.o.s were caught selling small arms from the collections..! Did you know that?) do not inspire cponfidence in me.or any person that values serious investigation.

 As for the rest of your comments...

 

 


 



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Monday 2nd of May 2016 01:05:03 AM

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Estimated Don CharlieC

 

I have no record, but there are graphic documentation that would indicate than was fitted at least a mixed cavalry regiment, the "Rgto 1 de Granaderos ".

I estimate that would be a dozen at least.

Its construction was unbeatable, with finishing details and elaborate technical solutions.

 

It differed from the 7.7 cm Feldkanone 16 (Fk 16 7.7 cm) or 7.5 cm Feldkanone 16nA (Fk 16nA 7.5 cm) Germans and other transformations made by Bofors or HIH in the axis of rotation of the overcarriage was not at the front, but is in the rear.

The following picture shows a 7.7 cm Fk 16 and within the red circles distinguished the tracks where moves  the overcarriage

 

 

 

In this picture you see another Fk 16 7.7 cm and  is recognized the steering wheel (within a red circle) of the screw that pushes the overcarriage side

This should not be new to you.

 

 

These pictures if they are on the Internet.

 

But in the Krupp 75mm canon de Caballeria, the system was totally different.

 

The overcarriage turn around an axis placed on its back and the movement is performed with screw endless placed in front of the gun carriage, and move  a sector gear mounted in front of the overcarriage

In the next picture (which is discussed in the previous note) you see that the steering wheel moves a shaft that acts on two bevel gears which in turn rotate the screw.

In the red circle you see where is the bevel gear box

 

In addition you can see than the back of the overcarriage no way to get around (see green rectangle)

 

Regards

 

Eduardo

 

 



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Now, this is NEWS!!
! All the Krupp mod. 1905 75 ,, L.28 (formerly Krupp modn.1898 75 mm L.3) featuered solid trails. The Argentine Armyy didn't have any horse artillery groups u ( Grupos de Artillería a Caballo) until Grupo No.1 was created in 1917 and Grupo No.2 in 1920..This suggests the modification was effected sometime in the 1920s..I will alert some of my contacts to see whether anything more specific can be found (e.g. where and when) . I have some ideas..
Cheers!
Gunther

P.S.  The only Krupp 75s ordered by the Argentine Army  was the model. 1909 75mmL.30/ My data comes from Krupp, it is also verified by Military Attaché Reports I've gathered. There were no intermdediate models of 75 mm field guns purchased abroad between 1898 and 1909.yet that  cannon bears the nuber 516 (which tallies well with the number of mod. 75 mm L.30 Mod.. 1909 actually urchased (516 according to Krupp, 520 according the Military Attaché reports-All the cannin were numbered in sequence(e.g. 1-100 etc) There were only 180 Krupp mod. 1898 purchased- which agains opens new qustions and muisteries.. The inscription in the gun? Well look at the Matorras (fabricated on the basis of Krupp mod.1896 75 mm L.13 spare barrels purchased along with the guns for replacement ( in tose days, the Argentines bought 3 and as many as 4 spextra barrels per gun) I..The inscription miht have been modified in Argentine arsenals. Ammpl note of the purchases made by Argentina were published in other outh American Journals at the time, but not one note, not one word appeared in the foreign specialized press, or for that matter the Argentine press about the model 1905s.. Ask  yourself why? and you will come to te obvious reason..Because no such purchase was made. The Argentine re-armament plant of 1909 (artillery,Mauser rifles and carbines all bearing mod. 1909 were in response tp Brazilian purchases of Krupp 75 mm and Mauser 7 mm model 1909...Battleships would follow next....

¹



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Tuesday 3rd of May 2016 10:53:27 PM

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Barbanente,

Your analysis of the modified Krupp 75mm is very interesting. If I understand you correctly (I am no technical nor engineer) the Argentine gun differs from several Rheinmetall, Bofors and HIH conversions of this or similar weapons in the fact that the weapon itself can move left or right wards a bit for aiming from a connection to the front of the carriage and not in the rear (of the mount on the carriage). Am I correct?

In that case I will look up some more modifications of this weapon to see what else comes up.


Still I'd say the two horns or equilibrators are a typical Bofors hallmark.

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Colonel

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Yes, the over and under equilibratos are a Bofors hallmark but...in the 1920s German engineers ( from Krupp) were at Bofors..(not sure whether Krupp didn't own a share of Bofors) and dsigned guns there,another way or circumventing the clauses of the Versailles Treaty...



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Wednesday 4th of May 2016 11:34:27 PM

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Indeed, and the Krupp light field guns of the early 1930 (as supplied to Brazil eg) have the same hallmark. So indeed Krupp or Krupp/Bofors.

The Bulgarian field gun modification has similarly interesting equilibrators.



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Yes,I've sen the Krupp mod.1938 field gun and he mod. 1934 horse artillery guns exported to Brazil (somof the latter were passed on to Bolvia in the 1970s,that country also received some Bofors 75mmL.40s from Argentina)

 

Now there was picture of a Bofors "8 cm gun which looked very much like the Bofors 75mm L.35 mod. 1935 exported to Argentina in the 1930s (al guns were delivered between 1938 and early 1939,not one was held up and diverted to Finland-that' story is a "red herring"

 Have you seen a picture of that gun (Bofors 8 cm I mean)

Cheers

Gunther



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I think you mean the Bofors 9cm L40 M1929 gunhowitzer. The same basic desgin as the Argentine 7,5cm but bigger. Same basic design turned also in 7,5 cm - 8cm AA gun range and the Soviet 7,62 field guns!

See for pictures: http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/thread/1219747743/Best+light+field+howitzer+in+1940%3F



-- Edited by nuyt on Friday 6th of May 2016 08:59:23 AM

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Yes indeed !That is the same photo I saw in the Spanish Encyclopedia....Next time I go to the Firestone Library in Princeton Univ.I'll make photocopies of that article.

I have a pic of the Soviet mod. 1931 A.A. gun somewhere in my files... While on the subject of the Argentine Bofors 7,5cm L.40, I saw some while in Buenos Aires in 2005-they looked as new as the day they were made...



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Hi 

 

Estimated Don Nuyt

 

It is effectively as you say, the movement mechanism is towards at the front of the carriage. It is seen in the photos.

 

On the subject of equilibrators must be analyzed from another point of view. Since the 20's an attitude of political commercial rapprochement Bofors (Bofors Krupp) with the Argentine government, and makes it step by step.

First it does with technical assistance in the modernization of the Krupp 75mm Argentine Model 1909. After unsuccessfully tries a second proposal for modernization using a gun carriage own design Model 1933, which retains the barrel assembly and the original Krupp 1909 elastic system. finally gets sell a model in which the proposed gun carriage used in the previous offer but using a cannon and elastic system Bofors design  based on the anti-aircraft gun Bofors 75mm L50 trimmed.

 

As you see it is a proposal technically it will overlap with the next, demonstrating that was trade and technical policy.

What is clear that as they some element gives a good result is adopted and remain in subsequent designs. This is the case of equilibrators that as seen in the photos the same is repeated in the three cases that I mentioned earlier.

This strategy is rewarded with a major artillery purchase of equipment for the Argentine Army, Navy and Air Force

In the three guns of the following photos, you can see in the green markings, the same type of equilibrators

 

 

 

Of these topics exists since from informal references to specific information verified.

 

As for the number cannon No. 513 (not 516 ) has nothing “mysterious” because from the beginning it was said that the “Cañón de Caballería”  (probably de1926) were the Krupp75mm Argentine Model 1909.

 

 

 On the other hand, who knows the guns of our army must remember that only the Krupp 75mm 1905 and 1909 used Welin breech block type (seen very clearly in the previous photos)

 

Delete a brand is very easy, but it is very difficult  engrave on steel  not only marks but the National Shield with artistic design, that was not done in our arsenals, here only numbers and letters  were marked.

 

Regards

 

Eduardo

 

 

 

 



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 On the other hand, who knows the guns of our army must remember that only the Krupp 75mm 1905 and 1909 used Welin breech block type (seen very clearly in the previous photos)

.

The mod. 1905 was the former mod.1898,which as the purchase orders and other documents clearly state, used the Nordenfelt breech mechanism ( see "Anales" of the Argentine Institute of Military History for 2005.  for further clarification It includes a list of all the guns purchased during the 1890s and the purchase of the license for the Nordenfelt breech mechanisms..

I did not indicate that the gun shown was no. 516, I clearly indicated that the number had to belong to a Krupp mod. 1909 since 516 (according to Krupp)  or (520 guns, according the the U.S. Miltary Attaché) were purchased,clearly you misunderstood my English prose...Incidentally, whereas reports of the U.S. and Brazilian Military Attachés credit the Argentine Army with 12 Krupp 13 cm siege guns, Krupp documents indicate 13..

Cheers

Gunther

 

 

 



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 6th of May 2016 10:58:21 PM

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I wonder if there isn't some simple confusion here. Nordenfelt held a number of patents for interrupted screw (Welin type) breeches and, as far as I know, marketed these along with the more famous rotating disk breech used in the French Mle 1897. Krupp patented an interrupted screw breech about 1905 - I should check if the patent refers to Nordenfelt's designs.

Regards,

Charlie



-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 6th of May 2016 11:18:02 PM

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You are right Charlie!  There were several models of Nordenfelt disc breeches! not just one. The Argentine rmy purchased the atent (half of it for 5m000 pouns,the other half was paid by Krupp) and you can see it clearly identified in the breech mechanism  of the Krupp mod. 1898,, the mod. 98 mountain guns and the Matorras 75mm gun fabricated with spare 75 mm L.13 intended for the mod. 1896 and 1898 mountain guns (and the ones Peru received, via Argentina) they are clearly  stamped Nprdenfelt..

Best Regards!

Gunther



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There is no way to confuse these two breech block, the "Maxim-Nordenfelt system" was designed by the staff of this company that was engaged in the business of weapons, while the second model was designed by Alex Welin, and this was his only contribution in this industry sector.

The only thing that united them was the fact that he ceded their patent to Vickers of England. Which in turn he gave licenses to other factories and other countries, including the Krupp who used the two systems.-

But, his difference is the design criteria for operation.-

The Maxim-Nordenfelt system was based on getting enough resistant surface breech block in the sum of fillets of a cylindrical body with only two threaded sectors to be rotated 90 degrees to ensure the closure. This movement is performed a sector gear driven by a gear rotating through a vertical handle placed in the center of the closure.

To achieve this resistant surface should be necessarily long, making it difficult closure, forcing to cut at some angle of the pieces that formed, or the breech box or threaded cylinder.

 

It was used in all Krupp guns of the Argentine Army since 1889-1902, the British used it in their field guns and mountain (QF13, 2.95 inch Mountain Gun, etc.)

 

 

The system designed by Welin was based on an ingenious breech block conical threaded staggered of six sectors, so that just rotated 45 degrees were hooked all six. This made it very short and compact as well as not requiring any cuts for the mobile block is clamped to the breech block.

 

The design criteria was  minimize the entire system

In the following photos you see all six threaded sectors and a vertical handle that rotates on an axis placed in the  right to the breech block

This system proved very robust so Vickers used him almost exclusively in very large naval artillery bore

 

 

There are many more system screw thread but are not Welin designs, such breech block Elswick Ordnance (with a conical sector and another cylindrical) De Bange the primitive, etc.

 

 

The last picture is of Krupp gun 75mm L30 1896 manufactured in Essen in 1905 for the Argentine Army, and the next picture is clearly visible brands and the Argentine National Shield of that canyon and can not be made more than in the factory and not by the "bad boys who change posters" .......

 

 FRIED KRUPP. A.G. ESSEN 1905  Nº32  336Kg.

 

 

To be clear this issue once, it is a Krupp cannon model 1896 barrel modified in the workshops of Krupp in 1905, in the same way the German Army received its guns Krupp 77mm FK 96 nA who were cannons 1896 fully modified by Krupp in 1904.

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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When thhe modification of  the Krup 98 75s (both field and mountain) was considered,one sample gun (a mod. 1895) was sent back to Germany for modifications to  determine whether it woukld be feasible..It was and the mod. 1895s were so fitted. Now,we have the evidence (see ""ANALES of the Argentine Institute that I've cited for the year 2005-The article was written by somebody I know perspnally, an artilleryman and head of the Historical Branch of this branch.

It also  knowb that because of the danger of war with Chile, delivery of the mod. 1898 L.28s was trushed (and thetre were some mo. 1896 barrels fitted  to these guns)

Since there is no written or published references to the contrary we mas safely assume that

A) a barrel for the Krupp mod..1905 75mm L.28s sold to other countries (e.g. Brazil) was modified by Krupp

b)That this served as a pattern for the other 100 guns of the 1898 mmodified in Argentine Arsenals.(see sign pos ted at the Ciudadela Museum by the mod. 1905..)

We ecord the events of our daily life in documents and paper,documents are not and should nor to be dismissed lightly..for there are no records of an oder,a large order for mod. 1905s (not any historical evidence of that documents the shipment of Krupp mod. 1898s back to Germanu.. The War Ministers of that era wereprobe,very probe and cost conscious to allow such a move when the job could be done in Argentine Arsenals.I would welcome proof to the contrary, but I doubt that it exists.as things happened the way I've described them

P.S.

Nuyt:

A bit of an off topic

In that Overwageen forum, I noticed a pic of Dominican Krups taken during the civil war of April 1965...They received a batch of Krupp mod. 1908 75 mm L.28s from Brazil c. 1947,along with some Mauser rifles and Madnen l.m.g.s..They had no AT shells,but the kinetic eergy of the shell was enough to knock out an L.60  light tank. It ripped the turret right off...

Cheers

Gunther

 



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 7th of May 2016 09:15:00 PM

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Hi

 

Saying that there is no historical evidence  when  they are cannon preserved  is strange, because it is taxed and stamped by the same Krupp. It means that the cannon was generated by a magical event ???  It was a gift from the Germans ??? As they appeared in Argentina ???

It also is engraved the Nº36 and you say , the Krupp guns  are consecutively numbered and   so at least there were 36 of them.-

 

Moreover, if there is documentation that supports its existence and corresponds to a confidential report of an officer of G2, name and rank John F. Long - Colonel- CSC  Military Atached in his report of 23 August 1943 acknowledges having identified and photographed artillery equipment during the Revolution of 1943.

Mentioned in this report as

 

…. Ítem c) .75mm gun Krupp Mod 1898? Modified in 1905 and IDENTICALY THE SAME AS THE NEXT ITEM…..

 

…..Itemd) 75mm gun Krupp L30 Argentine Model 1909……

 

It should be understood that found no evidence that those guns are not manufactured in Germany it had been otherwise mentioned as it would be an interesting fact to indicate where it would have amended.-

Another thing you see is that he found the two identical models, ie with the same breech block because it is unthinkable that an American colonel of intelligence service has not been able to differentiate (in 1943) the two breech block that were totally different.

Then not only the Krupp 1905 were in service in the Argentine Army, but did so for almost 40 years.

Or should we be suspicious of an American officer G2?

 

I remember his own phrase

 

….You seem to  labor under some severe misapprehension       

1) That because you are ignorant of a certain fact it does not exist..which only demonstrates a narrow point of view...

2) that I am here to educate you..for you "demand" proof of this,proof of that,well,

 

     I will do so for the sake of historical accuracy……

 

Regards

Eduardo



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You miss the point completely..or is it that you do not understand English too well????

The fact that you have one cannon with a barrel marked 1905 does not mean that there mod. 1905s purchased, that with the exception tion of that one piece  you have photographed the rest were modified Krupp mod. 1898s as I.ve stated all along. Had you bothered to consult the published sources that I cited you would have seen this..You are very predictable..so l took the trouble of copying the data published in Vol. 2 of Historia Argentina Contemporanéa (published 1962-66 by the Argentine National Academy of History) It actually cites the Parliamentary Record ( The  Senate Diario de Sesiones for 1908

and I quote:

Material available in 1908 (note they were voting funs for ews purchases,e.g. the Krupp mod. 1909 7,5cm L.30..)

Siege Artillery (Artilelria de Sitio) 12 130 mm cannon, 26 105 mm cannon

Field Artillery: 36 howitzers 10,5cm, 180 mod. 1898 75mm L.28 (quick firing)' In reserve: 180 mod. 1895 7,5cm L.24

Mountain Artillery : 168  7,5cm.

 

Now, this is a PRIMARY source, the Sessions of the Senate..Show me (once you've looked at it) where it mentions the 1905..for other than the Krupp 130 mm L.26 siege guns, the argentine Army did not received any other cannon until the 1909s arrived.

 

I remember my own words and stand by them.You think there was  a separate purchase of 100 or more mod. 1905s? Well, the Krupp records disagree with this supposition, and so do records readily available to you, as I said, in any decently equipped library. I am referring specifically and only to the so-called mod. 1905s......If there was an order, why do the Krupp records which are o meticously kept not show them, why to the "Anales" of the Argentine Army Historical Institute, which do not refer to it? Simply because there was never such a purchased..As the sign at the Ciudadela Museum states these were guns modified in Argentine arsenals (e.g. the mod. 1898s, as indicated by U.S. Military attaché Records.If you ever look at old copies of the Revista Militar, you will see that the HorsArtillery Groups only operated two types of cannon prior to the arrival of the Shneiders, The mod. 1898 (even  though they were modified to Mod. 1905s they still maintained the old designation) and the mod. 1909.

Cheers

Gunther

 

 



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Sunday 8th of May 2016 09:09:32 PM



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Sunday 8th of May 2016 11:36:29 PM

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Hi

 

I have already said, I do not care if you bought, or found in a flower pot, the weapon exists and is well preserved, the museum has the necessary information, and also Colonel John F. Long Intelligence Service (G2 American) identified him, he takes note of their inscriptions and described it accurately (his model, year of manufacture, the estimated length of the barrel, etc.) almost 40 years after its date of manufacture.

While You will considered as the reference book Historia Argentina Contemporánea 1862-1930 de Alberto Palcos  (not Cnel. Augusto C. Rodriguez that you mention, which is only an adviser) and its four bulky volumes of our artillery devotes only two half pages of Volume II, p. 364 and 365 (not 354-356) and only four words to the cannon 10,5cm

 

 

It is a report without any detail, does not indicate model, year of manufacture, its barrel length, not even if muzzle loading (we know that not, but as no data ....).

Consider  heavy howitzer a cannon  L 30.8  it is somewhat misplaced or have little knowledge of what is a howitzer

 

 

On the other hand it is a very incomplete report because in his list does not mention the most important guns of Argentine Army arsenal  of that time

 

The cannon Schneider 155 mm L30,8 Modelo Argentino 1928

The howitzer Schneider 155mm L15  Modelo Argentino 1928

The anti-aircraft gun Skoda 76,5mm L50 Modelo Argentino 1928

 

That is, they "forgot" the largest and most powerful guns (they did not see them??)

If you consider this as important information ......

 

In any case this discussion adds nothing to the subject of  130mm L26cannon, to the forum in general, so I leave to participate.

 

Say what you like and think what he wants, It is your right.

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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Permalink Reply Quote 
 
 

I

While it is true that Historia Agentina Contemporanea does not  d you to "Anales: for the year 2005..that is far more specific about models,dates, etc. To make this short: in 1895 (I am strictly referring to field guns) the Argentine Army bough t(I am only citing field guns  guns..() include model numbers of purcchahses  180 mod.98 L.24, in 1898 180 mod.. 1928 L./28 and in 1909 516 (some records indicate 520) 75 mm L.30s Nothing in between..

General Rodriguez WROTE that entire chapter of volume 2 as a book, a separate book that was published by the Biblioteca del Oficial ,in the same manner that Admiral Burzio published a book entitled ARmada Nacional,again part of the official navy's history. I cited Historia Contemporanea, as I figured that you did not have access to these books since they are part of a historical collection not readily distributed to civilian libraries in The Argentine.

Now,. Historia Agentina Contemporanea (hereafter refered to as HHC) does establish a couple of thuings : 1) the existence of the 105 mm cannon (which you said did no exist) and 2) the fact that, as I've said all along, the Krupp 130mm L.26 was classified as  siege gun ..Not a heavy gun, which it was not.

True,HHC does not mention the Schneider 155 gund and How,nor the Skoda 76,5mm A.A. gun:The book specifies that it covers Argentine Hhistory between 1862 and 1930.. The guns in questin were indeed mod. 1928s( though some 155 cannon were marked as mod.1929s!) but they were not delivered until the later 1930s..This is born by several Military Attachée reports for 1936,in which the 105mm L.30 cannon were described as"recenly delivered" The Yrigoyen government stopped paysments in 1928-29 to various manufacturers (including the builders of three destroyers foor the Navy) -the conditio  finantial tringency which h the Proviosinal  government found further delayed deliveries.

Consider  heavy howitzer a cannon  L 30.8  it is somewhat misplaced or have little knowledge of what is a howitzer

 

Up to world War One-  a gun aboce  20 calibers iin lngth was crated as a cannon, below 20 calibers it was raty

 25owd42.png

 

On the other hand it is a very incomplete report because in his list does not mention the most important guns of Argentine Army arsenal  of that time

 

The cannon Schneider 155 mm L30,8 Modelo Argentino 1928

The howitzer Schneider 155mm L15  Modelo Argentino 1928

The anti-aircraft gun Skoda 76,5mm L50 Modelo Argentino 1928

 

That is, they "forgot" the largest and most powerful guns (they did not see them??)

If you consider this as important information ......

 

In any case this discussion adds nothing to the subject of  130mm L26cannon, to the forum in general, so I leave to participate.

 

Say what you like and think what he wants, It is your right.

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Monday 9th of May 2016 10:59:14 PM

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Apologies for the interrupted message chaps! don't know what happened. To continue:

That is, they "forgot" the largest and most powerful guns (they did not see them??)

That has already been explained,however,the question evolved around weapons purchased before 1909, as I recall 

In any case this discussion adds nothing to the subject of  130mm L26cannon, to the forum in general, so I leave to participate.

 Nothing? Perhaps you  consider the fact that the  book  established both the quantity of 130s operated by the Argentine Army, and that it was classified as"NOTHING"  nt, but others (other than me) think just the opposite.

Say what you like and think what he wants, It is your right.

Apparently the fact that I am voicing my opinion,, apparently bothers, annoys an d angers you.If you object to my opinions (something clearly indicated by the frustrated,and angry   tones of your replies)  you are angered by any opinion that contradicts you own....So be it..

M y opinions are backed by published fcts and by reports from various sources..it is what they call investigative research. The Krupp records I have for Argentina and Chile are the quite clear about the guns purchased 1890-1909. I know, from past discussions with other members of this forum that I am not the only one that has access to these records(as somebody else quoted the Chilean purchase taken, also from Krupp records...but then again, you say that you "do not belive in papers" It is precisely inn such papers that humans recod their history.......



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This was omitted from the earlier post.general,so Iam attaching under separate cover

 

Northig,Perhaps you consider the fact that the book establied both the quantity of 130s operated by the Argentine Army  and that it was classified a a siege gun, as I said all alonga.s"NOTHING"  nt, but others (other than me) think just the opposite. The book also identifies the 75 mm guns as follows : 180 7,5cm L.28 and 180 7,5cm L.24. It does not say they were Krupps but WE KNOW THAT THEY WERE KRUPPS. Futhermore, this readily available source shows the gap between 1898 and 1909, that is to say it demonstrates clearly that no other 75 mm were purchased during 1898 and 1909..for those that want to read...Your blind denial of the obvious facts is what adds nothing and detracts!!

 

Say what you like and think what he wants, It is your right..

..

Apparently the fact that I am voicing my opinion, bothers, annoys an d angers you.If you object to my opinions (something clearly indicated by the frustrated,and angry   tones of your replies)  you are angered by any opinion that contradicts you own....So be it..

My opinions are backed by published facts and by reports from various sources..it is what they call investigative research. The Krupp records I have for Argentina and Chile are the quite clear about the guns purchased 1890-1909. I know, from past discussions with other members of this forum that I am not the only one that has access to these records(as somebody else quoted the Chilean purchase taken, also from Krupp records...but then again, you say that you "do not belive in papers" It is precisely inn such papers that humans record  their history.......



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Wednesday 11th of May 2016 07:18:45 PM

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Hi

 

I open the topic again because these days I have found information that I consider important.

 

When Mr. Brunner "assured" and said:

 

….”This might have been true of the 75 mm. field guns mod. 1895,1898 and the mountain guns 75 mm. mod. 1896 and 1898, but not applicable to the Krupps 130swhich were a personal gigt of Kaiser Wiliam II to the Argentine Republic”….

…”I beg to differ: there's one reliable German diplomatic report tat even gives the quantity of the siege guns donated by the Kaiser to The Argentine”…..

…”Just check my information from your side of the Ocean(once I quote the book and chapter available in your country) before you go on assuming....then we'll see”…..

…”Anybody can copy and paste from the INTERNET-.”….

 

He was wrong again, since when checking the information(from this side of the ocean) I found that in the Doctoral Thesis of General (R) OIM Dr. Enrique Rodolfo Dick ("La modernización del Ejercito Argentino en el marco del modelo Aleman (1899-1914))”, in the references, there is a copy of the file  Verzeichnis der von der GuBstahlfabrik und Grussonwerk von 1847 bis 1912 Gefertigten Kanonen (Geheim) Essen – 1912-1918  In which they appear contracts for 13 guns of 130mm L26 in the years 1902/1903 (according to Krupp in a single contract, and according to Mj. A. Duval for only 12 in a first contract, but in another contract they will add one more along with spare parts and ammunitions).

This information can be seen in the “Biblioteca Central de la Universidad del Salvador” de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires – Argentina.

  

 

Brigadier General Enrique Rodolfo Dick was Director of Production at the General Directorate of “Fabricaciones Militares” and then Director of Research, Development and Production of the Argentine Army.

Titles: Military Engineer in Armaments, Technical Superior School of the Army. Master's Degree in Aeronautical Engineering Aerodynamic orientation.

He is a member of the Institute of Argentine Military History, member of the Military History Group of the National Academy of History and Academic of the National Sanmartiniano Institute.

 

If the Argentine Government paid them, if Krupp made a discount, or the Argentine Army did not pay them I do not know , the important point is that they were a "special" order from our Army with specific characteristics such as caliber, length of its barrel and in particular its "breech system Maxim- Nordenfelt”.

 

Mr Brunner should re-read his sentence

 

…”You seem to  labor under 1) That because you are ignorant of a certain fact it does not exist..which only demonstrates a narrow point of view...

some severe misapprehension”…..

The fact that he has not been able to find such contracts does not mean that they did not exist. The General (R) IOM Dr. Enrique Rodolfo Dick, if he found them.

 

And it's not from the Internet .......

 

It's from the libraries…….

Regards

Eduardo

 



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Erased, as this was a duplicate reply



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 31st of December 2016 07:20:44 AM         

 

on Saturday 31st of December 2016 07:24:05 AM



-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 31st of December 2016 05:12:26 PM

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CONGRATULATIONS!!! IT ONLY TOOK YOU  7  MONTHS TO ATTEMPT A REPLY (and I say attempt because it failed to make its point: Quel Dommage!!

1) I am well aware of Mayor Gral Dick's book I have a copy personally dedicated to me by the author on 28 October 2014-so, you can rest assured that I know quite well who he is..and that he knows who I am.....

You have misinterpreted the data pn page 301 pf that book: The first column refers to the quantities shown in Krupp records ( in this case 13) the second column DOES NOT SHOW ADDIIONAL CONTRACTS, but the quantities cited by Major Duval of the Brazilian Army !!!!1 
 
There are two  additional points you fail to mention:
1) The correct designation for the Krupp 130mm L.26 is "Siege gun" (cañòn de sitio") as I have always maintained, and not "Heavy gun" as you erroneously  labeled it..

2) The list does not include any Krupp 75 mm mod. 1905 field guns purchased in Germany, as I have so often stated in another post...
Better luck in your next attempt at a reply..

 



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-- Edited by Brunner88 on Saturday 31st of December 2016 06:09:40 PM

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Hi

 

I have not failed in any way, since my "point" was just sharing the information I find (although I could have the hidden it). I have not misunderstood what the Gral Dick wrote, if you read correctly I am not saying that there had been two purchases, but according to Krupp ,Argentine bought the 13 guns together, and that according to Mj. Duval was made in two contracts, 12 guns in the first and 1 more with the spare parts and ammunition.

With respect to what I do not mention, you are right, but to change the name does not change either its service or its capacity (which is what really matters technically of a weapon), and does not actually mention the contract of Krupp 1905, I did not say that they were contracted, remember that at some point I said that I did not know if they were bought or harvested in a pot .....

Nor does it mention any purchase of the 150 mm model 1904 howitzer, which is described as possible in this forum.

 

I am surprised that if you knowing this book did not mention the existence of the contract for these 130mm Krupp guns, and insisted on ensuring that it was a gift from the German Emperor.

It seems that he intends to misinform the forum, that which is not an honest attitude.

 

I have this information some months ago but I manage my own times

 

Regards

 

Eduardo



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