Landships II

Hello Wayne

 

Here is a good book on the subject of markings on American Armor during WW1, by Schiffer Books:

 

Organization and Markings of United States Army Armored Units 1918-1941 by Charles Lemons

 

Book Description

This new book is most likely the first published on the organization and markings of American armor during the years prior to the Second World War. A subject that has long been ignored, the book reveals, through text, drawings and photographs, the colorful markings used by American armored units during this period. Starting with the American Expeditionary Force and the Tank Corps, it works its way through the Infantry-Tank units, mechanized cavalry, the first four armored divisions and even the GHQ tank battalions. Ever wondered what all of these geometric figures on the M2 series light tanks meant? This book will clear up that mystery. What unit does that tank belong to; what year was the photograph taken? The answers will lie within the pages of this book.

 

http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/book_template.php?isbn=076432098X

 

It is a little pricey at $59.95 for a 224 page book, but it will answer most of your questions.

 

All the Best

Tim R

-- Edited by Tim R at 21:12, 2006-03-21

Which program is needed to open the attachment, Wayne? I have tried a few image programs as well as MS Paint but with no success.

wayne wrote:

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I am attaching a scan of part of a photo of a MkVStar. The caption says it was an American MkV* at Bovington in 1918. I scanned the photo from Broyekollektsia No.5-2000. The photo is credited to Mr. M. Kolomnitsa. (my apologies for scanning if I have violated any copyrights in doing so.) The flash on the front horn seems to have the white stripe in the center. The right stripe appears lighter in shade than the left one. If red shows up darker than blue in B/W photos, it would seem that the flash is blue/white/red, from front to rear. The vehicle number behind the female sponson is obscured by the legs of men sitting on the tank. As you say, I also found photos in "Treat 'em Rough" that show a MkV "B.32" with white-red-white flash. The same book shows a MkIV (flash not discernable) described as an American heavy (I thought all the tanks furnished to the 301st were either MkV or MkV* - no MkIV's.

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The 301st were originally issued with Mk Vs - in France. These were used for training and trials of tactics but replaced with Mk V*s before the 301st went into action. As the 301st formed part of a composite British and American tank force all markings were standardised. What an American Mk V* would be doing at Wool (Bovingdon) must be a matter of conjecture. If it does have a red white and blue horn flash this could have been a purely local phenomina (just as some aircraft at training establishments deviated from the official markings regime) However one must take great care in analysing old monochrome photos. Not only do colours sometimes show in unlikely shades the effect of light and shadow can sometimes make the same hue look different even in the same photo. Serious historians of WW1 aircraft can point to examples of misinterpretation of aircraft colouring arising from this (in at least one case a light shadow has been misinterpreted as a coloured band and the mistake only discovered when another photo of the same aircraft has ben uncovered. The classic case is of course the misinterpretation of a whole class of Austro Hungarian camoflage which was eventually proved (through chemical analysis of old dope samples) to originally been shades of grey (but only after many books had been published and hundreds of modellers, myself included, had painstakingly painted models in completely the wrong colours). As for the Mk IV its possible that one or two might have been lent to the Americans for evaluation purposes (and at least one was despatched to the US for display and propaganda purposes).

Thanks for the adjusted scan, Roger.

The left and right stripes do seem to be different colours. The stripes are much wider than the usual markings and with the white in the center as Wayne pointed out. Does the photo capture the entire length of the tank?

Now this American tank does have very wide flashes

Centurion wrote:

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Mark Hansen wrote:  The stripes are much wider than the usual markings No they're the same.See the two photos in my earlier posting for example.

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Yep, which means I should know better than to eyeball measurements late at night!

If someone could just ask those doughboys to move their feet away from the tanks number! Looking at the shot a number of items strike me
1. The tank appears unarmed
2. The radiator does not have the usual broad sloping cover plates usually added to later Mk Vs and many Mk V*s when used in action
3. The horn stripes are if anything slightly narrower than usual
This would tend (but not conclusively) to suggest that its a training tank and therefore more likey to have not stanardised markings.

Mark Hansen wrote:

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Centurion wrote: If someone could just ask those doughboys to move their feet away from the tanks number!  No need! Enough of the number is visible to make a reasonable deduction. It's a Mk V* female, therefore the number must be between 9751 and 9950. The last two numbers are 1 and 4 and the first must be a 9. The second number can only be an 8 or 9. The right side of the number doesn't appear to curve in for an 8, so it is most likely 9914. The only other possibility is 9814. P.S.: And that is an exceedingly slim possibility. A further look at the photo shows that almost the entire right edge of the second number is visible. It must be 9914. -- Edited by Mark Hansen at 13:10, 2006-03-24

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9914 makes sense if this tank was at Wool training ground. (9814 would probably have been one of the original Mk V*s constucted [converted] in France and therefore much less likely to have ended up in Bovingdon).

Having just keyed this in it occurs to me to ponder - did the original Mk V*s carry forward the census number of the Mk Vs from which they were converted? And does the range of numbers given for Mk V*s (for example in the Devils Chariots) reflrct this?