Landships II

James H · Legend

Treffas About Face?

executioner · Corporal

you mean it could go both ways confuse confuse

Tony I · Lieutenant

The Treffaswagen was steered by the smaller wheel. The two larger wheels were powered and they are the front. You can see this by the drivers compartment of the prototype.

In the first photo you can see the step and handles for the driver to get in the front. You can see the driver's face inside the Treffaswagen. You can also see that the smaller (rear wheel) is turned sideways in the same photo.

Tony I

-- Edited by Tony I on Thursday 10th of June 2021 01:13:29 AM

James H · Legend

I quite agree that the big wheels are the driving wheels. It's more a question of which is the front and which is the back.

This is my Wikipedia summing up of the info on the American Steam Wheel Tank:

Although it is often assumed that the vehicle was a tadpole configuration (with two driving wheels at the front), a senior Holt executive and the Aberdeen Proving Ground's report state that it was a delta configuration (with the large wheels at the rear), and that the vehicle drove like a conventional agricultural tractor.

That's citing Fred Crismon. (1992) U.S. Military Tracked Vehicles. Motorbooks International. p84.

So since the two vehicles are broadly similar, it seemed to me quite reasonable to expect them to behave in the same way.

Tony I · Lieutenant

What I can provide is photographic evidence showing the Treffaswagen driver is in the front, where the large wheels are. It is possible that the only photo they had to go by earlier was the other more famous photo. I can see the Holt guy assuming the German's configured the Treffaswagen like Holt's invention, and APG going along with it, I guess. Still, they are both wrong.

I can also bring to the table my extensive background with most things German from WWII era. All similar devices the Germans created had the larger, powered wheels in the front, and the smaller, steering wheel in the rear.

This is seen in the Lauster-Wargel LW-2 and LW-3, Alkett Minenraumer, and to a lesser extent, the Krupp Kugelpanzer (the driver sits betwen the two large powered wheels, and there is a smaller trailing wheel for stability.

Take notice of the Treffaswagen driver circled in yellow, and other similar vehicles from Germany.

-Tony

-- Edited by Tony I on Friday 11th of June 2021 01:25:01 AM

-- Edited by Tony I on Friday 11th of June 2021 01:27:07 AM

James H · Legend

I don't have strong feelings about this, but it would be interesting to get to the bottom of it.

Fred Crismon says of the Steam Wheel Tank, "It has been generally assumed that a rear view is seen here, and that the large steel driving wheels were at the front. However, Mr. Louis Neumiller, a former Chairman of the Board at Caterpillar, remembers the vehicle undergoing tests and says the small wheels were at the front, farm tractor style."

Steve Zaloga is adamant that its large driving wheels were at the rear, and provides considerable documentary evidence:

https://landships.activeboard.com/t63071117/the-steam-wheel-tank-a-wikipedia-problem-help-needed/

https://landships.activeboard.com/t65990314/steam-wheeled-tank/

Tony I · Lieutenant

RE: Treffas About Face? (Large Wheels Forward)

James H · Legend

RE: Treffas About Face?

Tony I · Lieutenant

I guess it is a reasonable assumption. But it seems the layout the Steam wheel tank used was not conventional, problematic, and not realistic for most situations.

So far as German tech, I have accumulated vast amounts of reference material (pertaining to WWII and the inter-wars era) and like I said, have never seen such a layout.

Tony

Leander99 · Corporal

When I researched the Treffas, I also concluded that contrary to the delta tricycle configuration of the US Steam Wheel Tank, the Treffas had a tadpole tricycle configuration.

It is an interesting thought though, but the angled placement of the hatch, as well as the complete absence of viewing ports in the hatch itself, made me believe that it is a tadpole configuration. Then there's also the mention that the center of gravity was too much forward, causing the vehicle to flip. I doubt this statement could be true if the small wheel was at the front.

It is a shame there is so little information available on the topic. I doubt however to what extent later German tricycle developments can be used to evalute the Treffas design, since the Treffas is generally conceived as an isolated and little-known prototype that did not influence any other designs that followed since the 1930s. It is also specifically mentioned at least once (by Werner Oswald iirc) that the Lauster Wargel 3 had no relation to the Treffass whatsoever.

If this is true or not can certainly be debated. The chance that some engineers that worked on them knew about the Treffass is quite high in my opinion, but in terms of technical knowledge or actual test reports, I don't think that any of that official material made its way into the later German designs.