Landships II

Date: Mar 25, 2006

help with hussars

J Fullerton · Captain

Crazy ol' Field Marshal von Mackensen to the rescue!

I've seen original death's head busbies on eBay once or twice; they go for several thousand dollars, iirc.

-- Edited by J Fullerton at 02:12, 2006-03-25

J Fullerton · Captain

Ah, in fact another moment's googling found such a recently expired auction:
PRUSSIAN BUSBY OF THE 1st DEATH'S HEAD REGIMENT

Centurion · Legend

2nd Life Hussars attached. However although the busby was worn on active service (especially in theatres such as Macedonia) it was usually with a canvas cover that concealed the badge.

Centurion · Legend

Shot od Hussars in 1915 fording the River Dvina. Note whilst in Hussar uniform these guys are carrying lances! I've seen photos of steel helmeted German cavalry during the 1918 offensive also armed with lances. I suspect that this became the stanard German cavalry edged weapon of the time.

-- Edited by Centurion at 17:42, 2006-03-25

28juni14 · Hero

... by the 1910s the lance had returned to European cavalry use. All German regiments carried them( including Dragoons ). The theory was that an enemy picket line would give way rapidly as they saw Cavalry forming at a walk with a line lances held perpendicular , then held at the oblique as they broke into a half gallop, finally thrust parallel to the ground as they assumed full gallop. It would take nerves of steel to hold one's ground even in the prone position as the lance would easily spear them as the horsemen thundered past.

Centurion · Legend

28juni14 wrote:

It would take nerves of steel to hold one's ground even in the prone position as the lance would easily spear them as the horsemen thundered past.

Unless one had a machine gun and repeating rifles when this would be academic! Its amazing- even during the Napoleonic wars the French realised that a line of well trained infantry (such as Wellington's Peninsular army) could (and in real cases did) put up enough fire from muzzle loading muskets to break a charge of lancers long before they got within lancing distance and took away the lance from all but the first rank of lancers in a column (giving all the other ranks carbines). With SLEs and Vickers mgs their chances would be infinitesimal. Just shows how blinkered some military minds could be.

Michel Boer · Brigadier

The last cavalry charge (not with lances, but with the sabre) was in 1941 or 1942, when an Italian unit charged Soviet infantry at the Eastern Front. The Soviets had not expected such an attack and were scattered. Quite odd actually, realising that the Soviets used cossacks throughout WW2...

Michel.

Centurion · Legend

Michel Boer wrote:

The last cavalry charge (not with lances, but with the sabre) was in 1941 or 1942, when an Italian unit charged Soviet infantry at the Eastern Front. The Soviets had not expected such an attack and were scattered. Quite odd actually, realising that the Soviets used cossacks throughout WW2...Michel.

Actually the last in WW2 was somewhat later with Indian Cavalry charging a Japanese position but there has been at least one post WW2. However these were not classic frontal charges against a line of infantry preparesd and waiting for them. I'll dig out more details

28juni14 · Hero

.... The true purpose of cavalry was never to charge prepared positions. Their primary duty was to find the enemy's main body and it's intentions of movement, and conversely deny the same of enemy recon elements.

The best illustration of proper cavalry use came early in the war when the French Cavalry Corps sent into Belgium could not penetrate the German horse screen in front of Bulow.

Perhaps the largest cavalry vs cavalry engagement ever, was at Jaroslawice on August 21, 1914. I know of no other action in history that envolved the numbers employed in this Galician battle.

Centurion · Legend

28juni14 wrote:

.... The true purpose of cavalry was never to charge prepared positions. Their primary duty was to find the enemy's main body and it's intentions of movement, and conversely deny the same of enemy recon elements. The best illustration of proper cavalry use came early in the war when the French Cavalry Corps sent into Belgium could not penetrate the German horse screen in front of Bulow. Perhaps the largest cavalry vs cavalry engagement ever, was at Jaroslawice on August 21, 1914. I know of no other action in history that envolved the numbers employed in this Galician battle.

I think I'd agree with this with the addition of 'after 1815' The true purpose of cavalry after 1815...... Various military doctrines before then included using cavalry to break lines of infantry arrayed in formal battle order and denying mobility to the infantry by forcing them to form in square (where artillery could deal with them). Appropriate training in rapid fire and more flexible deployment allowed infantry in line to withstand cavalry charges (provided their flanks were protected). Towards the end of the Napoleonic Wars some British (and some Indian) regiments were capable of four rounds of musket fire per minute (and for very short periods in dire circumstances some crack units could achieve six). As more continental (European) armies began to achieve similar capabilities the death knell of the cavalry charge began to be sounded. Of course this was as usual a case of old lessons being relearnt as the longbowmen at Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt had already proved the superiority of fire against frontal attack by cavalry.

Michel Boer · Brigadier

28juni14 wrote:

Perhaps the largest cavalry vs cavalry engagement ever, was at Jaroslawice on August 21, 1914. I know of no other action in history that envolved the numbers employed in this Galician battle.

What about the Russo-Polish war? When the Soviets came near Warsaw, Budyonny's cavalry army was beaten by the Polish cavalry in a massive cavalry battle. Haven't dug into the exact numbers though... (probably out of sheer laziness )

Michel.

28juni14 · Hero

Michel - I assume you refer to the "Battle of Komarow", where in the Bulshivik Konnaya Armiya was met by the Polish 1st Cavalry Division. Firstly, the oft quoted claim".. biggest cavalry engagement since 1813.." is wholely exagerated; though continually quoted even today. The numbers involved prove my point;

Soviet 1st Horse Army (Kommaya Armiya): 5000 sabres*

Polish 1st Cavalry Division: 1800 sabres

Polish 13 Inf Divison: 7000 bayonets

Much of the Soviet cavalry faced the Polish infantry; while the 14th Division (2000 sabres) wasn't engaged.

By contrast, the KuK Korps that charged at Jaroslawice ( 2 Hungarian divisions) alone outnumbered the strictly "horse" soldiers from BOTH sides at Komarow.

* Period desertions likely put this number at about half.

Michel Boer · Brigadier

Like I said, haven't dug into the exact numbers out of sheer laziness. Thanks for filling me in!

I suppose both sides, for PR reasons, have been making this battle bigger in history than it actually was...

all the best,
Michel.

28juni14 · Hero

Michel - The Russo-Polish War is most interesting to study. The "battle" we've discused here was actually anti-climatic... (the Bulshiviks had already been beaten at Warsw and were pulling back) in as much as the Kommaya Armiya was able to withdraw in realitively decent order without pursuit.

It is my opinion that they(the Kommaya Armiya) were the first to use the panzer-grenadier concept successfully. All their infantry (1400+) actually moved in horse carts, and were able to keep up with the Cossacks reasonably well.