Landships II

Tomo · Corporal

Unusual camouflage, Mk V, Erin. 22 June 1918 IWM ( Q 6827 )

Gwyn Evans · Legend

What is unusual? Except that a tank previously used for training is apparently being repainted for action?

Tomo · Corporal

Hello Gwyn,

I find the date unusual ! By this time we are told that plain brown was the colour for tanks and yet here there is a full 3 colour camouflage scheme in progress almost worthy of Captain Solomon. At the same time the Tank Corps recognition panels are being applied and the rear drive sprockets renewed, so some degree of overhaul taking place obviously. Are you able to identify the tank ?

Willem Visser · Brigadier

According to: https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/lists/mk-v-tanks/9250-9350

it should be 9262.

But that paintingscheme is very interesting!

Best regards,

Willem

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I don't see it at all. Where is the three colour scheme? I see a tank that has been painted now being repainted. Some of the paint is wet, some is dry and the repaint isn't complete. So I think you're reading too much into this photo. Gwyn

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Why does the last digit have to be a 2? Gwyn

Tomo · Corporal

The same photograph is held at the National Library of Scotland with even better resolution. Here;

(384) D.2911 - Painting camouflage on a Tank

It is even possible to see the chalked on lettering above the number which reads ' TRANSFR'. Just by the ear of the painter can be seen part of the base of the last '2'of the number.

The original caption reads: ' OFFICIAL PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN ON THE BRITISH WESTERN FRONT IN FRANCE. Painting camouflage on a tank.

Tomo.

Nb. This is not a direct link and must be searched via Google and then apply the zoom feature.

-- Edited by Tomo on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 09:51:35 PM

-- Edited by Tomo on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 10:02:56 PM

Willem Visser · Brigadier

I am following the information in the list. It is said that it is probably 9262 ......

Possibly photographed being painted with recognition stripes:

IWM Q 6827: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205091980

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlscotland/4699887988/

08 Aug 18 - 10th bttn, Capt Sanderson J - Crew 11. Ditched prior to start. ^W10a

09 Aug 18 - 10th bttn, A Coy, J5, Capt Lambert JJ, crew 11- Attacked, Knocked out. ^W10a

and I think I see camouflage .... but several layers of wet and drying paint? It could be......

-- Edited by Willem Visser on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 10:24:53 PM

Gwyn Evans · Legend

OK, I can see what you're getting at regarding the paint now, but I'm still far from convinced. I still think that as we have a mix of old, new, wet and dry paint here it's a very difficult picture to interpret. I'll keep an open mind about it but I'll need more evidence before I believe this is a multi-colour scheme. I also think it possible this photo is post war. The tank has been at Bovington as a training tank (see the number 603) and is now being repainted possibly in a gloss dark green as its post war colours and maybe prior to service in Germany.

I am also not convinced it's 9262. There's too little of the last digit to be sure. It could be, but I don't feel able to say.

Gwyn

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Yes, but why 9262? Why not 9261 for instance? Ok, I know that 9261 was a Composite with a Male sponson on the port side, unlike this tank, but we don't know when it was converted from a normal Female.

Gwyn

Willem Visser · Brigadier

Hello Gwyn!

looking through pictures and searching for background information I often use the lists like the one here:

https://sites.google.com/site/landships/home/lists/mk-v-tanks/9250-9350

I was under the impression this was part of landships and the result of research of the members. Are those lists not connected to Landships (the forum)?

hope you can tell me about this.

thanks and best regards,

Willem

CharlieC · Legend

Google Landships is a completely separate project to Landships II. This is authoritative - I look after the Landships II website.

Landships II is a rework of Peter Kempf's landships.freeservers website hosted by Plesk with a lot of additional material added over the years.

The Landships forum is purely a forum hosted by activeboard and has no attached material.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 10:55:58 PM

Willem Visser · Brigadier

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Tomo · Corporal

This photo is one of a large collection taken by John Warwick Brooke, official war photographer 1916-1918. The location is given by IWM as Erin and is likely the 'Tankodrome' at this location. The date is also given as 22 June 1918. Other photos apparently from the same location show vehicles on a large washdown facility.

The tank is undergoing various work, including what appears to me, to be a two colour camouflage scheme applied over the original colour, patches of which have been left to give a third colour. The darker colour has been used to disguise the vision slits on the sponson which was common practice when tanks were camouflaged. One of the patches of original colour contains the number and also a chalked inscription ' TRANS FR' possibly meaning Transport to France ? This would obviously not have been chalked on a freshly painted surface.

The number is partially obscured by the painter's ear and in the spirit of open mindedness, I am prepared to accept that the missing number may have been a '1' although '2' seems to be more likely given that the port side sponson was changed for a male on 9261. However, closer examination reveals that rivets have started to be removed around the sponson, possibly preparatory to changing to a male ? If this was the case, why bother painting the female sponson which was about to be changed ??? That, as they say, is the Army for you !

Gwyn has identified this tank as a trainer from Bovington ( No 603.) Presumably rushed out to France as a reinforcement. Somewhere I have seen a photo of this tank in its training guise, does anybody know of this picture and most of all does it show the number?

Tomo

-- Edited by Tomo on Wednesday 10th of May 2017 10:32:03 AM

Gwyn Evans · Legend

The Google Landships site is the work of Robert Martin. I have in the past contributed material to it, which is why you'll find my name in the credits. I do not use the database because I have my own databases specified tailored to my needs and containing much more information than that on Google Landships.

Gwyn

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Good point about the original caption, which in this case is likely to be accurate. I also concur with the interpretation of TRANS FR, and that the chalked markings (there are others) will be on old paint.

I have no record of a photo of tank 603 other than this one.

Although I know that 9261 was a Composite with a port Male sponson, I do not know whether 9262 was also converted to a Composite. It may well have been (many Females were so converted - 14th Battalion had no Mark V Females at all). So whether this tank is in the process of being converted isn't much help in determining whether it's number is more likely to be 9262 or 9261.

I shall be similarly open-minded about whether this photo is evidence of a three colour camouflage on a Mark V in June 1918. I am sure modellers would be thrilled. For my part, I need more evidence to be convinced.

Gwyn

Willem Visser · Brigadier

Hello Gwyn,

thanks for explaining. I like to make use of information on the Google Landships website. Lots of info.

Have you any plans on making your database public? Website, book(s) or any other form. There is never enough info

best regards,

Willem

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Hi Willem

I have no plans to make my databases public. My research I do publish. Forthcoming is an article on the Mark IV at Bovington, and an academic article on Mark I production. I am currently working on a comprehensive study of British tank production to 1920, and some collaborative projects. All contains a lot of new information.

Best

Gwyn

MooreTanks · Lieutenant-Colonel

Gwyn

Where do you publish your research?

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I have been published in enthusiast's magazines, such as Tracklink and Tankette. Where possible I publish in peer-reviewed academic journals. There is an article of mine in the Transactions of the Bristol & Gloucestershire Archaeological Society on the identification of the tank at the Museum of Lincolnshire Life as Gloucester's presentation tank. I have another article currently being peer-reviewed for the Journal of the Society for Lincolnshire History and Archaeology. I also give talks. I am speaking at the Museum for Lincolnshire Life on Tuesday, and I'll be back in Lincoln for a talk organised by the Friends of the Lincoln Tank in September. Goodness knows where or if I'll get my tank production stuff published. Maybe I'll just leave it to the nation. biggrin

MooreTanks · Lieutenant-Colonel

I really enjoyed my visit to Lincoln museum of life two years ago. I have contacts with two military history publishers if you are interested. I am going down the pub with one of the agents in London on Friday to chat about another book he wants me to do. I could mention your stuff then if you want.

I have already helped a friend get in contact with them. His T-35 tank book is now coming out in August called Fallen Giants via Amazon. Another friend is waiting for his tank book to be proofread before publication. (You will not get rich but it is nice to see your research in print)

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Thanks. If I ever get rich it will be entirely accidental.

Gwyn

Peter Smith · Captain

Accepting the need to be careful of museum tanks at all times, and especially those with chequered prior histories, Bovington's MkII is painted in a scheme reminiscent of the scheme on the MkV above. Sort of cloudy with squiggles (technical description, I know......). To my eyes the photo looks like different colours rather than different wet/dry old/new shades of a single colour.

It is my understanding that this scheme was applied either when she was converted to a Composite for post-war exhibition touring or converted to a MkI Female replica after that. Certainly, all her 3 previous wartime identities have been overpainted. I've always thought it to be entirely spurious, but could it be a homage to a scheme that was actually used?

airdave · Major

Looks to me like they are removing paint...not applying it.
Those three men all have the same bucket of "paint remover".
This would also explain the weird patterns in the camouflage colours.
Just my observation.