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Post Info TOPIC: Russian 152mm Howitzers
CharlieC


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Russian 152mm Howitzers
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I've been trying to sort out the pre-WW1 152mm Russian howitzers. I believe that Russian Army wanted two types of 152mm howitzer,

a heavier fortress type and a field howitzer. Both Krupp and Schneider built prototypes with Schneider having the inside running because

of the 1907 agreement with Putilov. I think the two companies submitted:

Krupp

Fortress - 152mm M.09 L/16 3790kg

Field - 152mm M.10 L/15 2175kg

Schneider

Fortress - 152mm M.09 L/14 2750kg

Field - 152mm M.10 L/12 2130kg

What I don't know about these howitzers is:

1. The Schneider M.09 was also built by Putilov - how many howitzers were imported and how many sourced locally

2. When did the production of the Schneider M.09 get underway

3. Did Putilov build any M.10 howitzers or were they all sourced from Schneider

4. Aside from the prototypes did Krupp supply any 152mm howitzers to Russia.

5. If so, how many were supplied.

I guess I really should try and find a copy of Shirokorad's "Encyclopedia of Russian Artillery" and have my usual high drama with OCR and

machine translation. I thought someone might know something about these howitzers. 

There is a view, in a website which shall remain nameless, that Schneider's "Canon de 155mm Mle 1915" was a copy of the Russian howitzer(s) - this

isn't the case - Schneider built a prototype in 1914 which used much of the design from the two Russian howitzers to make a new howitzer which was shown

to the French Army.

Charlie

 



-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 16th of March 2021 09:30:05 AM

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nuyt


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There was also a Rheinmetall 6 inch/15cm howitzer for Russia, designed in 1912-14 period.

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CharlieC


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nuyt wrote:

There was also a Rheinmetall 6 inch/15cm howitzer for Russia, designed in 1912-14 period.

The Schneider 152mm M09 and M10 would have been in production by then. Perhaps Rheinmetall was just being hopeful. 

Any idea what the Rheinmetall howitzer looked like?

Charlie



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Capitan Print


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There was a competition in Russia for new 152-mm howitzer in the beginning of 1900s. Afaik there were several artillery manufacturers from different countries, who took place in the tender. The Schneider was chosen as the winner, so two his howitzers (fortress M.09 & field M.10) were adopted in Russian Imperial Army artillery.
Nobody never saw the appiarance of the other manufacturers guns. Imho the German models (Krupp/Rheinmetall) of the 152-mm howitzers for Russia were similar to the ones, wich were adopted for Reichswehr in the early 1900s (for example 15 cm sFH 02).
By the way during the WWI Russia bought 16 pieses of 15-cm field howitzer Type 38 in Japan (15-cm sFH 02, made under Krupp license).
Imho one need to find Krupp and Rheinmetall artillery catalogues of the time and saw the howitzers there.

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Our wifes are charged cannons! (the words from Russian folk song)!
CharlieC


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The Krupp M09 (fortress) and M10 (field) howitzers were very different from the sFH02. According to Kosar the M09 was L/16 and the M09 was L/15.

Also both howitzers seem to have had rear mounted trunnions which would have enabled a much higher rate of fire compared to the Schneider howitzers.

The key thing with this "competition" is that Putilov and Schneider had signed an agreement in 1907 to work jointly on a range of artillery pieces for

the Russian Army. Shirokorad is quite sarcastic about the competitions organised for different types of guns before WW1 - that even comes through from the

Russian text.

The Japanese 15cm Type 38 howitzer was based on the 15cm sFH02 but had an interrupted screw breech and fired a lighter projectile than the German howitzer.

I think there are Type 38 survivors in Vladivostok and Finland? 

Charlie



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CharlieC wrote:

 I guess I really should try and find a copy of Shirokorad's "Encyclopedia of Russian Artillery" and have my usual high drama with OCR and

machine translation. I thought someone might know something about these howitzers. 

 I viewed the Shirokorad's book on these howitzers.

1. 6 inch field howitzer L/12 M.1910 of a "Schneider system" was based on the 150-mm Schneider light (?) field howitzer, one piece of wich was tested in Russia in the year 1909. In the next year the howitzer was adopted for service in Russian artillery. In the years 1910 - 1927 to the Army (Russian Imperial and later Red) there were delivered 381 pieces. I didn't find info about any competitions concerning this gun.

2. 6 inch fortress howitzer L/15 M.1909 of a "Schneider system" was based on the 155-mm Schneider heavy field howitzer, wich was later became Cannon de 155 C Mle 1915. It was in this case when the so-called "competition" took place. The participants were Krupp, Rheinmetall, Schneider, Skoda and Bofors. The Schneider howitzer was a winner for known reasons. This howitzer was abopted for service in 1910. Since 1910 to 1931 (?) to the Army (Russian Imperial, White, Red) there were delivered near 700 pieces. I didn't find any info on the technical features of the other manufacturers guns.

3. Concerning the German (Krupp's and Rheinmetall) M09 and M10 152-mm howitzers in pre-war Russia I didn't know anything apart what I wrote above. Imho there was some confusion with guns. The only Krupp's howitzer in Russian service during WWI (not counting tropheys) was 122-mm (48-lines) light field howitzer M.1909.

4. As I know today the two pieces of the japaneese 120-mm and 150-mm howitzers Type 38 are the showpieces in "Ratnaya Palata" ("Military Palace") Museum in the town of Tsarskoe Selo, Leningrad region, RU. Earlier these guns stood at the "back court" of the St. Peterburg Artillery Museum. 

 



-- Edited by Capitan Print on Sunday 18th of April 2021 03:44:21 PM

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Our wifes are charged cannons! (the words from Russian folk song)!
nuyt


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CharlieC wrote:
nuyt wrote:

There was also a Rheinmetall 6 inch/15cm howitzer for Russia, designed in 1912-14 period.

The Schneider 152mm M09 and M10 would have been in production by then. Perhaps Rheinmetall was just being hopeful. 

Any idea what the Rheinmetall howitzer looked like?

Charlie

 

This is what is mentioned in the book "50 Jahre Rheinmetall" on page  40. It specifically mentions the development of this weapon for Russia, along with several other weapons. Among these is a 15cm sFH L14 for Belgium, so maybe a similar design?

I wish I had Shirokorad and if I find it I will learn Russian. I should have bought it many years ago when I saw it in a great bookshop on Nyevski Pr.

 



-- Edited by nuyt on Sunday 18th of April 2021 01:31:46 PM

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nuyt


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Ralph Lovett's page mentions tests in Russia during the development of the sFH13, so the Russian model may be also closely linked to that one:

www.lovettartillery.com/Development_of_German_Heavy_Artillery.html

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nuyt wrote:

Ralph Lovett's page mentions tests in Russia during the development of the sFH13, so the Russian model may be also closely linked to that one:

www.lovettartillery.com/Development_of_German_Heavy_Artillery.html

Where is this mention? I didn't find. If you mean the sentence, wich begins "Following firing tests in Russia...", so it applies to the trials in the 1908 - 1909, when Schneider 6-inch fortress howitzer was chosen by Russians.

 



-- Edited by Capitan Print on Sunday 18th of April 2021 04:28:04 PM

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Our wifes are charged cannons! (the words from Russian folk song)!
nuyt


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Capitan Print wrote:
nuyt wrote:

Ralph Lovett's page mentions tests in Russia during the development of the sFH13, so the Russian model may be also closely linked to that one:

www.lovettartillery.com/Development_of_German_Heavy_Artillery.html

Where is this mention? I didn't find. If you mean the sentence, wich begins "Following firing tests in Russia...", so it applies to the trials in the 1908 - 1909, when Schneider 6-inch fortress howitzer was chosen by Russians.

 



-- Edited by Capitan Print on Sunday 18th of April 2021 04:28:04 PM

  Indeed!



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