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Post Info TOPIC: Captured vehicles and guns?


Major

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Captured vehicles and guns?
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We are all aware of the Germans using the Mk IVs and Russian IGs but did anyone else use captured vehicles or guns in any sort of quantity? Thought they would make good ideas for modeling or wargaming.

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Field Marshal

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The Germans used captured Russian guns in many roles. The standard 7.65mm Putilov m/02 was often used as a AA piece, due to it's range. These guns were often rebuilt.


They also used not too few Russian Armoured Cars. And some Italian Lancias. With quite nice markings - skulls & bones etc.


/Peter K



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Hero

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The central powers, particularly Germany, used virtually everything they captured; if it could be repaired and rendered usable.   This is particularly true in the case of artillerie.  They had favorites in their arsensal of beutegeshutzen.  Peter has mentioned the Ruskie M02 , perhpas used in greater numbers than any other piece.  They had a high regard for the 7,62cm round of this gun, and that of it's predicessor; the M1900.  They proved to be excellent high-angle fire weapons because of their strong, long recoil recouperator, and were pressed into the AA role mounted on new carraiges.


Captured Ruskie heavy guns were also used in large numbers.  The Germans were also fond of the French System deBange guns and used them in appreciable numbers. (The Germans deemed "reach" a more important artillerie attribute than rapidity of fire.) 


German manufactured ammunition for captured artillerie included 7,62cm, both 12,2cm and 15,2cm for the Russian guns/howitzers, and 120mm for the deBange.  It may surprise some students of the war to note the much lauded French "75" was not held in particular high regard by the Germans.   (Large numbers of M1897 guns were captured during the war.)  By 1916 more than 400 had been converted for AA use, all of them rebored to the German 7,7cm.



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Legend

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28juni14 wrote:


  It may surprise some students of the war to note the much lauded French "75" was not held in particular high regard by the Germans.   (Large numbers of M1897 guns were captured during the war.)  By 1916 more than 400 had been converted for AA use, all of them rebored to the German 7,7cm.

This could be simply because the Germans did not produce 75mm ammuntion and it would be easier (and quicker) to bore out the guns to use something already in production than to set up a whole new production line. The best gun in the world is useless without shells.

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Hero

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...I beg to differ...  They were eager to produce the high performance Russian 7,62cm one piece ammunition; simply because they found it's performance superior.   Isn't it reasonable to assume if they entertained the same opinion of the French 75mm, it would have been manufactured too?  



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Legend

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28juni14 wrote:


...I beg to differ...  They were eager to produce the high performance Russian 7,62cm one piece ammunition; simply because they found it's performance superior.   Isn't it reasonable to assume if they entertained the same opinion of the French 75mm, it would have been manufactured too?  

The answer lies in the words high performance.They might have been prepared to manufacture new ammunition on this basis but the 75 and and the 77 had about the same performance so there would be no advantage in having two ranges of ammunition, quicker and simpler to bore out the 75. The same thing happened in WW2 with both French 75s and some Soviet Guns being reamed out to take German ammo.

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Legend

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huhncc wrote:


We are all aware of the Germans using the Mk IVs and Russian IGs but did anyone else use captured vehicles or guns in any sort of quantity? Thought they would make good ideas for modeling or wargaming.


I think huhncc's question deals more with powers other than Germany using captured equipment. The only use I have seen of captured German equipment is for testing, rather than front line use. An example is "Elfriede" being given some test runs and then  having huge squares of plate cut from the sides for armour piercing tests.


Of course, there is nothing to stop you from modelling an alternative history where (for example) the A7V was produced earlier and in larger numbers, some of which are captured by the French and reused against their former owners.



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Legend

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Mark Hansen wrote:


huhncc wrote: We are all aware of the Germans using the Mk IVs and Russian IGs but did anyone else use captured vehicles or guns in any sort of quantity? Thought they would make good ideas for modeling or wargaming. I think huhncc's question deals more with powers other than Germany using captured equipment. The only use I have seen of captured German equipment is for testing, rather than front line use. An example is "Elfriede" being given some test runs and then  having huge squares of plate cut from the sides for armour piercing tests. Of course, there is nothing to stop you from modelling an alternative history where (for example) the A7V was produced earlier and in larger numbers, some of which are captured by the French and reused against their former owners.

Bart H Vanderveen of the Olyslager Organisation states that Autro Hungary employed Fiat Ansaldo ACs captured from the Italians and Austin and Rolls Royce cars captured from the Russians. However I didn't know that RRs were used in Russia but perhaps these were in fact Lanchesters ex Locker Lampson's force.

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Major

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Mark is correct. I am looking for captured equipment that the British, French, Italians, etc. (and Germans other than the norm) used. Like a German a/c unit mostly of captured Russian vehicles used on the Western or Italian front. Like the statement below - 

"They also used not too few Russian Armoured Cars. And some Italian Lancias. With quite nice markings - skulls & bones etc."


 


Any links to photos or references?


 


Thanks,


Chris



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Legend

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Attached shows the remains of a captured Lancia being towed away. Can anyone read the inscription on the turret? It looks cyrilic

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Cap lancia.jpg (34.3 kb)
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Field Marshal

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Centurion, your photo of the Lancia with a Cyrillic inscription reminded me of an excerpt from Guy Chapman's "Vain Glory", which is attached. It's a vivid and rather gruesome account of an armoured car "suppressing" a mutiny by Russian troops at Kalush in Galicia, in 1917. It was written by Sergei Kournakoff, a Cosssack officer of the Circassian Horse Regiment. Of particular note, the crew seem to be Italians. Were Italian armoured car units deployed to the Eastern Front?

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Legend

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Rhomboid


The crews names are indeed Italian (and also French from former Savoy) However Ghighi is also a place and family name in Armenia and Albizzi (especially in the form of Al Bizzi) appears in a number of Islamic countries or countries with a significant Islamic influence (including parts of the old Russian Empire such as the ex Khanates and the South Caucuses) as Armenia is adjacent to the South Caucuses its just possible that the crew came from that part of the world.



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Field Marshal

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the germans had at least one of 2 working samples of every tank the allies had except the Mk.I and Mk.V, the latter though there are some claims that the Germans had some runners



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Hero

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The armoured car unit used against Rumania in 1916 included a Minerva M1914.  This is one of only two actions with descriptive annalysis that I've found .


Reviewing my notes, I find the following erbeuteten radpanzer employed by the Imperial Army during the Great War:


Minerva M1914 u M1916 (4)  -captured Western front


Peugeot M1915 (4) -captured Western front


Lancia IZ Mk2  (6) -captured Italian front


Fiat (?) (5) -captured Eastern front


Garford-Putilow (8) -captured Eastern front 


Jeffery-  (4) -captured Eastern front


Packard M1915 (5) -captured Eastern front


Pierce-Arrow M1916 (7) -captured Eastern front


Austin (old pattern?) (5) -captured  Western front


Austin(new pattern?) (5)- captured  Western front


Austin (?) (5) - captured  Eastern front



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Anonymous

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28juni14,


This is great, just what I was looking for!


Thanks,


Chris



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