Landships II

Vilkata · Brigadier

Uberlandwagen 'Crooked Crosses'.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Hundleby & Strasheim point out that the 'crooked cross' on the vehicles in the photo were a unit recognition symbol and had nothing to do with the {political party} led by {a person with a short moustache}.

It's so aggravating that the dreaded "S" word gets people panicky. Yes, it was the symbol used (or abused) by a particularly evil political group but putting a ban on the word itself is ridiculous. Is there also a ban on the four-letter "N" word or the six-letter "H" name? That's the reason for the not too obscure reference above.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 13:47, 2006-04-28

Aleksandr · Captain

As far as I know, "crooced cross", or "swastika" - old simbol, which was used in many religions and Slavonic too. Many old slavonic ceramics marked with this simbol. I not understand, why we mast to be afraid to study rial hictory due to any political ambitions.

Roger Todd · Legend

Irrespective of what one thinks about the merits or otherwise of blocking the 's' word, before this thread goes completely off the subject, Vilkata's point, as I understand it, is that he is fully aware of the benign pre-National Socialist history of the crooked-cross (he alluded to the lengthy discussion elsewhere on that point on this very forum - he started this thread because that old thread gets blocked), but his question is concerned with the specific crooked-crosses on those particular uberlandwagens, pictures of which he has attached: why do they have little flourishes on the ends of their arms? Were these merely additions to the basic form made by those vehicles' crews as an extra recognition point? Or is that type of crooked-cross yet another ancient variation? And is the octagon significant?

Personally, I think it could go either way - after all, there have been many variations on the crooked-cross throughout history, and even today among other cultures; some with curved arms, some with different length sections to the arms, some with a dot in each quadrant which forms part of the design, etc.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

Irrespective of what one thinks about the merits or otherwise of blocking the 's' word, before this thread goes completely off the subject, Vilkata's point, as I understand it, is that he is fully aware of the benign pre-National Socialist history of the crooked-cross (he alluded to the lengthy discussion elsewhere on that point on this very forum - he started this thread because that old thread gets blocked), but his question is concerned with the specific crooked-crosses on those particular uberlandwagens, pictures of which he has attached: why do they have little flourishes on the ends of their arms? Were these merely additions to the basic form made by those vehicles' crews as an extra recognition point? Or is that type of crooked-cross yet another ancient variation? And is the octagon significant? Personally, I think it could go either way - after all, there have been many variations on the crooked-cross throughout history, and even today among other cultures; some with curved arms, some with different length sections to the arms, some with a dot in each quadrant which forms part of the design, etc.

That's why I mentioned Hundleby & Strasheim. According to their book, it was a unit recognition symbol for the tracked transport column Armee-Kraftwagen-Kolonne-Raupe Nr 1111. As far as the octagon being significant, I don't know. Significant to the unit perhaps; there is another insignia halfway down the side of the wagen which appears to be surrounded by an octagon (distorted due to perspective). I can't make out what the insignia is but it certainly isn't a {crooked cross}.

eugene · Field Marshal

if you look carefully the "crooked cross" is a bit diffrent from the standard crooked cross the edges are turned so its a bit different, they look really similar to the Finish ones of WWII

also interesting side note Tsar nicolas II had a favorite symbol that he often doodled on paper and things like such, it is no other than the "crooked cross" this little bit comes from a good book by a Swiss teacher of the tsarevich who lived with the tsar family, since the book was published in the twenties the claim sounds true

steve fildes · Sergeant

eugene wrote:

if you look carefully the "crooked cross" is a bit diffrent from the standard crooked cross the edges are turned so its a bit different, they look really similar to the Finish ones of WWII

Yes, I wondered about that.
Sneaking in a little early-Twenties stuff: I also wondered about the variety of non-standard crosses on post-WWI German vehicles, etc. Some of them looked more suited to prison tattoo art.* I guess most of these groups only hired media gurus later. Your street fighters and your graphic artists sometimes don't go to the same meetings.

* I hasten to deny any close acquaintance with prison tattoo art....

Aleksandr · Captain

And I can say, that "svastika" was plased on banknotes of "Temporary Government", so-called "Kerenka"

-- Edited by Aleksandr at 09:43, 2006-05-13

Paul · Sergeant

Hallo Vilkata,

This is my first question in this forum:
I have read the discussion about the "crooked cross" and watched the pic (uberlandwagen_bw3.JPG ) you have posted. Maybe it's just not that adaquate but I have a question, that although be associated with it.
On the right vehicel you can see the typical crest with german eagle, wich�can be�often seen on WW1 pics.
Does anyone know what exactly this is? Is it an imperial sign, or only used for the prussian parts of the imperial army? Does only softskin, transporting vehicles carry that thing? Never seen one on a figthing vehicle, but this does'nt mean anything. And where is the differnce between the iron cross and this?�
I have'nt find any explanation, neither in books nor in the web.

Best Regards