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Post Info TOPIC: Last seen in Berlin


Legend

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Last seen in Berlin
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Missing Lynx has a thread showing a WW1 tank in Berlin 1945. The photo is extremely dark and difficult to make out. I enclose a copy that I've applied some image enhancement on. It appears to be a female Mk V that has been very comprehensively totalled, presumably by a Soviet tank or AT gun.  The last gasp of the beutepanzer. I guess that this is proof that WW1 tanks were used in the defence of Berlin despite some of the doubts that have been expressed.

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aka Robert Robinson Always mistrust captions


Field Marshal

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An intriguing photo, Centurion, which raises some questions. Note the photo date in the caption; Jan. 1, 1945, prior to the battle for Berlin. The ruined building in the background is the Berlin Cathedral, taken from the Lustgarten (soon to become Marx-Engels Platz, now reverted to the Pleasure Garden). The cathedral was burnt-out by an incindiary bomb on May 24, 1944. Could the Mk.V likewise be a bombing victim? And who was the tank captured from, the British in 1918 (unlikely, given that the Mk.V's were not in action before July), or the Russians in WW2?


I wonder if After the Battle's Berlin, Then and Now book might shed some light on this? Anyway, in the "then and now" spirit, here is a recent photo of the cathedral (restored 1974-82) from the Lustgarten. 



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Field Marshal

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This has been discussed before, and there is yet to see any proof that Mk V were actually used in combat. We know that a number of Mk V:s were taken in the early stages of Barbarossa, but these were static objects, used as memorials, and they were showed in a museum in Berlin. And these museum objects were ALSO shot up - for fun, or just in case. Anyway, I don't think they were in condition to be used, and don't even think they were runners. (Not to mention the lack of ammo for the 57mm guns.)


I will check my "Berlin - Then and now", and get back!



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/Peter Kempf


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This is the ex-Russian Mk.V that was exhibited in the "Lustgarten" adjacent to the "Zeughaus" (armory). It was captured during the German advance into Russia and became part of the Zeughaus collection. In better days it was flanked by some captured Russian guns. The tank never moved away from the "Lustgarten" (the building you see in the photograph is the "Dom"/cathedral, which limits the Lustgarten to the east).


However, in this picture, the tank is damaged. There are other photographs that show it still intact with Russian soldiers around it. The damage thus may have been caused by someone trying to drag it away - or its the start of scuttling the vehicle. The tank has been turned about 90 degrees to its original position.


There's also a German colour picture showing this vehicle, in a time when there still were trees standing in the Lustgarten (ca. 1943).



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MZ


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Thanks "Mad Zeppelin" for clearing this out!


You know: someone ought to collect all these photos and write an article on the Berlin MK V's, once and for all clearing up the mystery! I will most gladly post it on the site!


All the best



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/Peter Kempf


Legend

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Peter Kempf wrote:


 (Not to mention the lack of ammo for the 57mm guns.)


Which wouldn't apply to a female  tank. Any surviving beutepanzers would have only been permitted to be kept (by the Allied Disarmament Commission) if the guns had been removed so if put back into service new guns would have had to be fitted anyway.


Its always possible that some of the old tanks were used as static strongpoints so that mobility would not necessarily have been an issue.



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Legend

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mad zeppelin wrote:



 There are other photographs that show it still intact with Russian soldiers around it.


So the date on the photo must be incorrect? (see Rhombod's posting).

-- Edited by Centurion at 12:49, 2006-05-08

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aka Robert Robinson Always mistrust captions


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The date provided with the photograph should - like so many captions - be regarded as "wrong". Especially German archives are prone to having incorrect places and dates. - The original collections were mostly destroyed, no notes by the photographers survived, and years later someone "thought out" a suitable text for those pictures still at hand.


The Zeughaus had an 1:1  A7V-replica (by the name of "Hummel") and an orginal Ehrhardt armoured car, so this Mk.V fitted well with their collection, although they were short of a Mk.IV (all scraped by order of the IMKK in 1919). The Zeughaus collection was destroyed in 1945, the Mk.V survived because it was placed outside the building.



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MZ


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I belive that all tanks spotted - is it just the same one, even? - in Berlin 1945 are Mk V, Mk V's taken in the Soviet Union during WW2, and taken home as war trophys. As I know it, the Germans were not allowed to keep any Mk IV Beute's.


It's great story, with the desperate defenders of Berlin rumbling around in a WW1 tank, but I'm afraid it won't wash. Wish it did, though...


All the best



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/Peter Kempf


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The following website has a photo of the Lustgarten Mk.V being examined by a G.I.: 


http://macswitch.tripod.com/berlin/id12.html


Evidently the tank was still largely intact and in it's original position when the Allied occupation troops arrived in Berlin in the summer of 1945.



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Legend

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I wonder if this was the 'grit in the oyster' that formed the 'pearl' of the story.


"Sometimes I wonder if it was a dream” he muses recalling that fateful flight. The last time he and Navigator George Compton saw each other prior to this meeting they were bailing out of a burning B-17 over Berlin. Compton was suffering extensive injuries that included the loss of an eye.  Schrimsher came away almost unscratched.  Bombardier James Conway also escaped unhurt. Shells were literally exploding within feet of him and bullets were whizzing every which way and yet he was not touched.  He parachuted and was captured by what looked to him like a group of Hitler Youth.  They stripped him of his outer flight suit but left him wearing his (no longer) electrically heated flight suit.  He was then loaded on a turretless World War One tank for a trip thru Berlin's streets."
"There I am standing in this old tank in this bright blue suit going through the Berlin suburbs.” He had become a war trophy.
Northwest Florida Daily News
. January 2003



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aka Robert Robinson Always mistrust captions


Legend

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Centurion wrote:


He was then loaded on a turretless World War One tank for a trip thru Berlin's streets.""There I am standing in this old tank in this bright blue suit going through the Berlin suburbs.” He had become a war trophy.Northwest Florida Daily News. January 2003

Maybe this wasn't a reference to the Mk V but to the FT-17, some of which were captured by Germany early in WW2. Standing in a turretless FT-17 while being driven around Berlin would certainly give him more of an appearance of a "war trophy".

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Smats

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Another photo here, apparently showing 2 tanks.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grantonchaz/5191292217/in/set-72157625429978374/lightbox/



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