Landships II

Centurion · Legend

Interesting claim

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

Sounds like a misunderstanding: perhaps confusing the Russo-Balt Armoured Vehicle with a tank?

Roger Todd · Legend

It could refer to virtually anything, either one of the many paper projects we know were floating around in Russia at the time, as well as their tinkering with halftracks as well as armoured cars. The problem is that most general journalists wouldn't know the difference between a tank and an armoured car. Seriously, I've seen wheeled armoured cars described as tanks, along with half-tracks and anything even vaguely armoured or armed. Just as you sometimes see modern missile-cruisers or destroyers referred to as 'battleships'. Ludicrous. I instinctively mistrust any claim like the Latvian one made in a general publication.

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

It could refer to virtually anything, either one of the many paper projects we know were floating around in Russia at the time, as well as their tinkering with halftracks as well as armoured cars. The problem is that most general journalists wouldn't know the difference between a tank and an armoured car. Seriously, I've seen wheeled armoured cars described as tanks, along with half-tracks and anything even vaguely armoured or armed. Just as you sometimes see modern missile-cruisers or destroyers referred to as 'battleships'. Ludicrous. I instinctively mistrust any claim like the Latvian one made in a general publication.

I'd usually concur were in not the case that the article was not 'general' but a fairly good history of Latvian industry particularly that having grown from the Russo Balt plant in Riga. It is acurate in those areas that are can be checked (railway vehicles and the like) and not some 'gee gosh' bit of hackery. The claim was in essence made in passing to illustrate the range of things Russo Balt did. Thats why I raised the question. We've seen that a lot went on in old Imperial Russia that is only recently coming to light. and I wondered if this might be another. "A combat vehicle on caterpillar tracks" might be a half track (were there any as early as 1915?) but is unlikely to be a confusion with an armoured car. Tim is a Russian arcania expert - anything out there?

Tim R · Hero

Hello Gentleman

I have read this with a lot of interest, As Centurion has acknowledged, a lot of new information is coming out of the East. Russia, Latvia, Estonia etc. I have read this same claim in various books, on Russian Vehicles. A lot of Historians claim that the vehicle in question was either a Linn or Bullock-Lombard or Allis-Chalmers tracked tractors, armored by Russo-Balt. But there is a matter of truth to the statement, that Russo-Balt developed there on caterpillar tracked combat vehicle, and it is not a direct derivative of the Kegresse Russo-Balt system or the Austin Kegresse system. Rather it is a completely independent design. Basically a rude tracked system, with a box on top. I no of no armament that was scheduled to be used. I have attached a drawing of a later design by Hugo Bremer, who also designed the Bremer-Wagen. This in sorts shows the configuration of the Russo-Balt Caterpillar design. Unfortunately, the only drawing I know of is not very good or reliable. Other than this limited information not much is known, I can tell you that the design fell by the way side in large part due to the fact that Russia was more interested in Armored Cars, and Half-Tracks. As with the other Russian tank designs, Lebedenko, Mendelejev, Vezdekhod, Tzar, and the elusive улитка (the snail tank) the Russo-Balt tank has slipped into obscurity.
Hopefully in the near future, More information will appear on these amazing subjects, we are already learning that there were many more Armored Car designs, than we realize, like there were two versions of the Putilov-Garford, and so far three different Ford designs, and two different Simplex designs. So lets cross our fingers, the next big discovery could be around the corner.
All the Best
Tim R

Aleksandr · Captain

IMHO, it was said about "Vezdekhod" (see). As I remember, A.Porokhovschirov was from Riga. Dut it is not historical, but political article. As we say, to read between lines: Russia was backward country of bears and Latvia only is piece of civilization in that Dark Empire.

Roger Todd · Legend

Centurion wrote:

"A combat vehicle on caterpillar tracks" might be a half track (were there any as early as 1915?)...

Apparently a Colonel Gulikevich built an armoured halftrack vehicle, with powered front wheels, in 1915. Milsom discusses him and includes a photo, but my scanner's not set up and I'm out the next couple of evenings so scanning it will have to wait. Milsom leans heavily on Mostovenko's Tanki of 1958, so I imagine/hope Aleksandr or someone may have more up to date sources (hint...

).

Tim R · Hero

Hello Gentleman

Ok, Colonel Gulikevich designed the "Akhtyrets" armored tractors based on the Allis-Chalmers half-track tractors. They are commonly called Gulikevich�s. I have quite a few photos of them, and I believe Aleksandr posted some on another topic, close to this subject. As far as the front wheels being powered, there is no evidence that these particular vehicles were powered any where except for the rear tracks. Of course this by no means rules out, that Colonel Gulikevich designed and built a vehicle with powered front wheels. I have read this else where, I have just never seen any photos to prove it. To which I would love to see that photo Roger. Ok as far as the date and claim is concerned, we know Kegresse, designed and built a rudimentary half-track system for the Tzar in or around 1909-1910, so this of course means that the idea at least existed to build vehicles with tracks. As Aleksandr stated Russia and Latvia were very far removed from modernization. With a few exceptions. They excelled in building and designing Armored Vehicles, be it Armored Cars, Trains and tractors. That much we have to give them. Weather or not they had the industry or not, they definitely had the will and intelligence to build and design some rather unique vehicle. Now I am inclined to believe that some people will think that the Russo-Balt tank design was the Kegresse-Russo-Balt half-track, as Peter has stated, but there is enough evidence to prove that a design was laid out by Russo-Balt. I am unsure of the date, and no I don�t believe it was in 1915. (Or the first tank design) I believe like many Historians of this era, that the plans were laid out some where between late 1916 early 1917, before the Civil War, and of course this was probably a major reason this project never went past the drawing stage. As I stated before an amazing subject.

Aleksandr может вы добавить??

Sorry if my Russian is bad, I have been taking classes, me and my wife are adopting a baby from Russia, and it is a requirement.

All the Best
Tim R

Centurion · Legend

Russo Balt built a civilian half track some time pre 1914, based on one of their luxury touring cars - however I have only seen a photo of a relatively recent model.

If they did build an tracked AFV in 1915 its worth remembering that in the same year all production was moved from Riga to Petrograd in the face of the German advance. This could easily have put a halt on such a development and any prototype could well have been destroyed.

Tim R · Hero

Thats True!!

All the Best
Tim R

Aleksandr · Captain

Good day for all!

Excuse me, Tim, but colonel Gul'kevich bilt his armored tractor on Obukhovskiy plant, in St-Petersburg. But Porokhovschikov's Vezdekhod was bild in Riga, and I am sure that correspondent says about Vezdekhod. This is same as was wrote in Soviet Union that Vezdekhod was the first tank. 20 years ago we had the joke, that "Soviet Union is fatherland of elefants", this article is from the same pages.

Tim, Russian language is very difficult, but I hope that we will can communicate after the vry little time.

Best regsrds.

Aleksandr.