Landships II

ivstefano · Captain

Fiat 3000 (?)

Centurion · Legend

The Fiat 3000 was a very close copy of the FT17 but this looks closer to the French than the Italian! The shape of the main 'girder' supporting the suspension is Renault rather than Fiat. However the turret is a later addition. Both the German and Italian armies used Renault FTs (acquired in 1940) for anti partisan operations. I suspect that the tank in your photos was 'picked up' somewhere in French Savoy in 1940 and fitted with a new turret with a Solothorne AT gun in Italy and then shipped out to Jugoslavia where it eventualy changed ownership once again. This would explain the Italian plate on the turret.

Vilkata · Brigadier

Centurion, are you speaking of the Swedish Solothurn 20mm AT gun? There is a brief section on it on this page:
http://www.inert-ord.net/atrkts/50-55-20/index.html

How can you tell that is a Solothurn from those images? The muzzle brake seems entirely different, and the recoil housing beneath the barrel (if that is a recoil housing) seems to not be in line with the Solothurn.

This brings me to an interesting question though. With WWI tanks being so upgunned during WWII, is it possible that an aged WWI tank became essentially a Tank Ace?

During the invasion of Poland by both the Russians and the Germans at the start of WWII, the Polish Tankette groups actually managed to knock out quite a few heavier tanks. In one engagement a 2.6 ton 20mm automatic cannon mounting tankette managed to knock out three Czech LT-35 tanks of 10.5 tons mounting a 37mm gun, and machine guns. In the beginning years of the war heavy tanks weren't that common on any sides, with Germany using mostly light tanks or medium tanks, such as the Panzer I, II, and III, Russia using vast ammounts of T-26 tanks, etc.

It is entirely possible that an up-gunned FT-17 could have kocked out quite a few enemy tanks. And because most armies used FT-17s in some manner in WWII, it could have been against anyone. Captured FT-17s being upgunned and used in defense of a city towards the end of WWII, upgunned FT-17s defending against Germany early in WWII... Could be super interesting.

It's always fun speculating.

---Vil.

Centurion · Legend

Vilkata wrote:

Centurion, are you speaking of the Swedish Solothurn 20mm AT gun? There is a brief section on it on this page: http://www.inert-ord.net/atrkts/50-55-20/index.html How can you tell that is a Solothurn from those images? The muzzle brake seems entirely different, and the recoil housing beneath the barrel (if that is a recoil housing) seems to not be in line with the Solothurn. This brings me to an interesting question though. With WWI tanks being so upgunned during WWII, is it possible that an aged WWI tank became essentially a Tank Ace? During the invasion of Poland by both the Russians and the Germans at the start of WWII, the Polish Tankette groups actually managed to knock out quite a few heavier tanks. In one engagement a 2.6 ton 20mm automatic cannon mounting tankette managed to knock out three Czech LT-35 tanks of 10.5 tons mounting a 37mm gun, and machine guns. In the beginning years of the war heavy tanks weren't that common on any sides, with Germany using mostly light tanks or medium tanks, such as the Panzer I, II, and III, Russia using vast ammounts of T-26 tanks, etc. It is entirely possible that an up-gunned FT-17 could have kocked out quite a few enemy tanks. And because most armies used FT-17s in some manner in WWII, it could have been against anyone. Captured FT-17s being upgunned and used in defense of a city towards the end of WWII, upgunned FT-17s defending against Germany early in WWII... Could be super interesting. It's always fun speculating. ---Vil.

Swiss rather than Swedish. I've seen photos of captured Solothurns mounted on Australian manned Carriers in Italy - with the same style muzzle brake etc.

The Panzers Mk I and II had such thin armour that a K round could penetrate them (and the much maligned Polish cavalry did knock out a number of German tanks by using their carbines firing a form of K round) so the FT would not need to be up gunned. As far as I can see the Polish and French FTs had most success when operating in defensive positions (for example a castle gateway) where the German tanks greater speed and manouverability could not be used to afvantage.

eugene · Field Marshal

what kind of gun is that ft-17 fitted with?

solothorn or something else?

for some reason the photos stuck to my post . . .

-- Edited by eugene at 14:35, 2006-06-28

-- Edited by eugene at 14:36, 2006-06-28

-- Edited by eugene at 14:36, 2006-06-28

Matt Heil · Lieutenant

Gentlemen,
I don't mean to put a damper on all the fun speculation (in particular the "WW1 tank-ace in WW2" discussion, which sounds awesome!), but if you look carefully, particularly at image 'ft6', you can tell that the gun mounted on this vehicle is in fact the normal 37mm, it's just had a extra section of pipe or perhaps even a 20mm guntube stuck or welded onto the muzzle.

ft6.jpg
37mmgun.jpg

Hopefully those two links will work...

Hope that helps!
Matt

Centurion · Legend

Matt Heil wrote:

Gentlemen,
I don't mean to put a damper on all the fun speculation (in particular the "WW1 tank-ace in WW2" discussion, which sounds awesome!), but if you look carefully, particularly at image 'ft6', you can tell that the gun mounted on this vehicle is in fact the normal 37mm, it's just had a extra section of pipe or perhaps even a 20mm guntube stuck or welded onto the muzzle.

ft6.jpg
37mmgun.jpg

Hopefully those two links will work...

Hope that helps!
Matt

Actualy it looks as if someone has retained the mantle and barrel (plus attached recupurator cover) of the 37mm and shoved a 20 mm AT gun through it (presumably having removed the original breech) thus providing a quick conversion. Ordinary metal tubes don't usualy have flash supression fittings on the end!

Vilkata · Brigadier

I believe the only way to fully know what sort of armament this FT has would be by reaching a hand up inside the turret and taking pictures of the gun itself. It could just be a ploy to make people think the country had more powerful tanks than they did, either in WWII, or more recently. Perhaps a museum curator just decided more people would take pictures of the FT and donate money if it looked fierce and mean - something the original stumpy 37mm does not convey at all.

I really like the idea of someone simply removing the action of the 37mm, and shoving a new 20mm barrel-first through the breech and out the barrel, and voila, new up-gunned FT-17, but it seems a bit odd to me.

---Vil.