Landships II

eugene · Field Marshal

Turkish armored cars/units

Centurion · Legend

Apart from a few vehicle bought years before the war I'm not sure they had any. They did have armoured trains (one fought a very one sided and terminally short engagement with a British warship at the Dardenelles).

eugene · Field Marshal

yes ive seen a photo of the turkish armored train, on ebay.

and the armored car, is that the one were Enver Pasha is standing next too?

Centurion · Legend

I have not seen the E bay photo but they had more than one armoured train. I believe that they used some on the Damascus Medina line (the one Lawrence blew up was not armoured, no armoured train ever got as far as his sphere of operations thanks to the efforts of irregular forces under Col Leishmann operating much closer to Damasus - funny Lawrence never mentions this (not))

There is a photo of Enver standing by an amoured car with some members of the Young Turk movement seeking to overthrow the Sultan.

Bodlosh · Sergeant

I have one from "years before war"... Hotchkiss from 1909

Centurion · Legend

Thats the one. I undertood they bought about 10 some of which were still in use in 1914. The Turkish army seems to have been a mixture of old and new - virtually no mechanised transport but a better understanding of the use of heavy machine guns (and the guns to implement this) than did many other armies of 1914.

eugene · Field Marshal

Bodlosh, Centurion,

thank you very much for the information both of you provided

and Bodlosh thank you very much for the photo

kapudan emir effendi · Corporal

Eugene, the osprey campaign series book "Megiddo 1918" mentions "a few Daimler aromored cars" fitted with train tracks and used to patrol the syrian railway lines; tough it does not mention if these were part of german "pasha detachments" or were ottoman army vehicles. Nor their model is clear (Austro-Daimler m.1906 or Ehrhardt radpanzerwagen ?)

Centurion · Legend

I've seen some references to these being manned by German personnel and being Erhardt but no detail.

kapudan emir effendi · Corporal

Centurion, thank you for clearing the mystery. There remains me a question: what is the chassis of that hotchkiss automitrailleuse, posted by Bodlosh ? is it a genuine chassis or just a civilian car with her rearside enclosed by a plated box ? the Vehicle's shape suggest me the second choice, but of course it's just a guess. It would be an interesting project to search for a rather big scale model of that chassis and execute an easy scratch project to build that armored car (if my guess is true for sure

)

Centurion · Legend

Although I can find no direct reference to Turkish motorised units two of the officer types in the enclosed phot of Turkish troops with an Mg on an AA mounting are wearing motoring goggles. I don't know where the photo was taken but as the Turkish forces in Palestine and Syria seem to have suffered badly from air attack by RFC, RAF and AFC squadrons this area would seem a good possibility (except that the astrakhan hats don't realy fit).

J Fullerton · Captain

The Jpeg title say "libia" and "291916", could this be an Ottoman contingent sent to organise local actions against the Italian forces in Libya?

kapudan emir effendi · Corporal

Most probably yes. Italians were using aircraft to reconnoiter sanussi positions as a result of their previous invasion's experience; that may explain the need for an AA weapon.

(And the goggles look very cool with the kalpaks ! )

Centurion · Legend

Another photo of the Turkish Hotchkiss. This appearently has a government minister called Orlog on board (is this correct? was there a minister called Orlag?) and is said to be in Constantinople in1909 . Every one looks very pleased.

-- Edited by Centurion at 21:48, 2006-11-04

kapudan emir effendi · Corporal

Centurion it's a superb picture thank you so much !

The officer on the left side, in the armored box, looks like none other than Mahmud Shevket Pasha ! commander of the "salvation army" sent to quell anti-UPC riots of 1909.

Centurion · Legend

Couple more Hotchkiss shots. I've seen an unconfirmed report that at least one survived long enough to be used at Galipolli (I ha m'doubts but who knows?)

kapudan emir effendi · Corporal

Centurion these pictures re unbelievebale ! wheredo you find them ?

Jeeves · Corporal

I have the same pictures, but alas forgot where I found them...
Perhaps this ones also of interest

kapudan emir effendi · Corporal

Simply breathtaking ! I can easily the say that the poorest turkish military history literature on the earth is in Turkey itself ! really frustrating

Centurion · Legend

Jeeves wrote:

I have the same pictures, but alas forgot where I found them...
Perhaps this ones also of interest

A clearer version of that photo has been posted by me in an earlier thread in this forum. I have a copy in a book on rmoured cars. The original caption suggested that Enver Pasha is standing by the car. Presumably this means the guy in civvies but having looked at some photos of Enver it doesn't look like him.

I found my photos on various sites and in a number of books. One has to learn the art of 'web mining' or 'google diving' and try less obvious search parameters (and even use different languages). Quite often you don't always find exactly what youre looking for but something else interesting turns up.

J Fullerton · Captain

The guy in the civvies doesn't look like Enver at all, nor does anyone else in that photo (to me).

Someone may have posted it in a different thread, but there's a photo of the Ottoman 1909 Hotchkiss on page 251 of Touzin's Les Vehicules Blindes Francais, 1900-1944, and the officer standing on the building steps directly beneath the flag looks exactly like Enver.

ETA: I just looked through old the old related threads and didn't see the picture I'm talking about. I'm starting to suspect that the publisher of the other photo had both available, but miscaptioned the one that he ran which doesn't have Enver in it. The one I'm referring to is in front of a completely different building, with steps leading up to the entrance flanked by ornate latticework railing. The passenger appears to be the same man as in the other photos, or at least is wearing the same unusual light-coloured uniform.

-- Edited by J Fullerton at 10:13, 2006-11-22

-- Edited by J Fullerton at 10:13, 2006-11-22

Centurion · Legend

I'm the one that posted it to this forum (as I said in my last post on this thread!). The caption I refered to was the one in the book where I found it not on the copy I posted!. (From memory Wheeled armoured vehicles 1900 -1942). I also have a copy of Les Vehicules Blindes Francais, 1900-1944. The guy under the flag certainly has Enver's Kaiser like moustache but I'm not completely convinced that its him

eugene · Field Marshal

could someone post that picture?

yalkan · Private

Does anyone know is there a 1/32 scale model for Hotchkiss armoured car from any manufacturer?