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Post Info TOPIC: Amiens again.
JamesH


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Amiens again.
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I've got rather caught up in exactly how many Tanks were used at Amiens, and it’s very difficult to find two sets of numbers the same.


 


First, the French; Rhomboid and Mad Zeppelin are right according to Guenaff & Jurkiewicz. The 10th BCL (Bataillon de Chars Legers) was with the 3rd Army at Montdidier. The 328th, 329th, and 330th Companies, officially 75 FT-17s but probably 72 or fewer, attacked with total success along the road from Roye to Amiens. These might be Keegan’s 70, but the attack took place on August 10th and there were no more French Tank actions until the 20th.


 


The French had been loaned 9 Bn for an attack on Moreuil on July 23rd. It succeeded but the Bn sustained such losses that it was still refitting on August 8th, and doesn’t seem to be included in the tally.


 


So how many British Tanks took part on August 8th?


 


It’s not easy to make these figures add up, and the Whippets make it more complicated still. The consensus is that 2 Whippet Battalions took part, but some sources say that was 72, others 96.


 


Richard Holmes says, simply, 342 Mk V “and an assortment of supply and infantry-carrying tanks”.  I don’t know what he means by the latter term.


 


David Fletcher arrives at the total of “some 600”, including five companies of Supply Tanks and Gun Carriers.


 


Major-General N. W. Duncan cites “just over 460 fighting tanks, including a mechanical reserve, and 140 odd supply tanks.” That brings us again to just over 600.


 


If both these gents are correct, then there’s no room again for Keegan’s French Tanks.


 


Fletcher, Duncan, and John Glanfield all quote 9 Battalions of Heavies plus 2 of Whippets, but Duncan’s map of the battle shows a total of 12, even without mention of 9th Battalion. Duncan shows 10 Bn with III Corps, 2, 8,13, 15, & 17 Bns with the Australians, and 1, 4, 5, & 14 Bns with the Canadians. 3 & 6 Bn, the Whippets, are with the cavalry in the rear. That would give 360 heavies plus 22 Gun Carriers plus the uncertain number of Whippets, a total of either 454 or 478.


 


A.J. Smithers says Rawlinson had 14 Battalions, two of them Whippets and the rest (12) Mk V or V*, plus a company (22) of Gun Carriers. Depending on how many Whippets there were, that’s 526 or 550. Like Duncan, he places 10 Bn with III Corps, Fifth Brigade with the Australians, Fourth Brigade with the Canadians, but doesn’t specify how many battalions. The total of those two Brigades must be 11. There’s no mention of numbers of Supply Tanks.


 


Stern himself, who was, admittedly, elsewhere at the time, writes of 430 out of 435 Tanks going forward and seems to include in that two “brigades” of Whippets, “90 in all”. Williams-Ellis, who was there, says “430, including Whippets”.


 


David Fletcher not unreasonably describes Amiens for various reasons as “undoubtedly one of the most significant battles of the First World War”. That’s “battle”, not just “tank battle”. Odd, then, that it is so overshadowed by Cambrai, and that the details of the machines involved are so hard to pin down. Has anyone got cast-iron figures?



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Centurion


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Ever heard of the fog of war?


 


Its one thing for example to know how many battalions were involved but do you know how many of their paper complement were actually available on the day etc etc.?


 


Let me try and give a reasonable assesment.


Assuming the battle started on the 8th August (so we can forget the French **** up at Beugneaux on the 1st) 8 Battalions of Mk V tanks, 2 Mk V* and 2 Whippet were allotted to the 4th Army. In efect every unit in the Tank Corps apart from the  1sr tank brigade (still equiped with IVs) was used. Mk V * battalions normally (note the normally) had 36 tanks, Whippets normally had 48 and Mk V battalions 36 fighting tanks and 6 training tanks. (complicated isn't it?). This comes to about 450 tanks - BUT some of these were held in mechanical reserve - in case of breakdowns and about a battalions worth was held as reserves and committed to battle as and when (and if) needed. There were also 118  supply tanks of which the majority were IVs but 22 were converted Gun Carriers and an unknown number were wireless tanks, wire cutters, Renault FT comms and liason tanks etc etc.
Confused? Just wait.
In addition
2 Battalions of French Renault FTs (about 170 tanks) were committed to battle at  Hangest et Santerre on 8th August but the French were always a bit sniffy about having these included as part of Amiens - this was their battle and Amiens was a diversion! 2 days later a further 80 plus Renaults went into action at Ressons - part of Amiens? mais non!


I have also seen some accounts that say that a negro regiment of US troops also went into action on the flank supported by the crappy Schnieders that was all the US high command would let them have but as the American gov at the time was incredibly reluctant to admit that any afro american units saw action (might upset the southern voter) these have probably never been counted.


 


Now make sense of all of that and pity the poor historian


 


 



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JamesH


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I realise there would have been a lot extemporising on the day, what with mechanical unreliability and logistical problems, but I was trying to get an accurate figure as to how many machines were committed on paper to the offensive.


It's helpful to know that a battalion of Whippets was definitely 48, but there are so many contradictions - in some cases whole battalions of heavies present or absent depending on which account you read.


Pity the poor historian, indeed; in Martin Gilbert's reference to Amiens in his history of the War, he doesn't mention Tanks at all . . . .



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I suspect that 'on paper' its about 450 but on the ground is quite another thing.

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JamesH


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It's the way you tell them. I specifically rewrote that sentence to avoid giving anyone the chance to do that . . . . .


Anyway, something else that intrigues me is where you get all your info about French Tank operations from. Guenaff & Jurkiewicz don't have that amount of detail. Can you recommend any sources?


Sapere Aude. (Clue)



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At the risk of being repetitive I quote a source I've quoted many times in other threads. 'The Fighting Tanks Since 1916' ,by Major Ralph E Jones. Captain George H Rarey and Lt Robert J Icks, was written about 1928/30 and published in 1933 by the National Service Publishing Company in Washington. It gives details of all significant (and some insignificant) British, French, US and German tank operations up to 1926. It isn't 100% (but what is) but is pretty comprehensive for 1916 - 1918 (if you exclude Russia). The first two authors served in the US Tank Corp & I think the book was intended for use as a basic primer for US tank officers

The book was Re issued in 1969 by We Inc Conn. So it may be possible to find a copy in the 2nd hand market.



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JamesH


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Fantastic.


Ta.



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