Landships II

Centurion · Legend

Hungarian speakers please

McGuba · Corporal

Hi,

I could make a full translation, but it would take too much time and it contains many unimportant data so I only made a rough translation of the essence. BTW it was a good practice.

The beginning of the creation of the armored arm of the

Royal Hungarian Defense Forces

- the LK�II and the FIAT 3000 B

After the First World War the now independent Hungary, as part of the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, was treated as a loser and had to accept the hard sanctions of the winning Entente countries. Hungary lost two thirds of its territories and population to its new-born neighbors and had to pay a compensation for long decades. As part of the sanctions Hungary was only allowed to keep a small army (max 35.000 men) and recruiting was also banned.

(McGuba�s note: Hungary was not allowed to have warplanes, tanks, armored cars, and heavy artillery. Later Hungary was allowed to purchase 12(!) armored cars for police duties. The maximum number of 10 cm howitzers and machine guns was also restricted.)

With these restrictions Hungary had no protection against her mostly hostile neighbors. So, it was essential to create an effective defense force, even in an �illegal way� by violating the sanctions. For the training of the armored units' crews a 'covert' training school was established, the Police School of Novices or maybe Police Novices' School � Hungarian abbreviation: RUISK. Those who were trained there later became the core of the armored arm. During the 1920�s armies all around the world started to analyze WWI experiences and to implement new technologies and new tactical and strategic theories. For Hungarian military leaders it was clear that a modern army can not exist without the armored arm. Completely lacking tanks, armored training was started in the early 1920�s using improvised tank imitations and models.

The origin of the first 'real' tank of the RUISK is still unknown. Despite the banning and strict control of the Entente military observers in 1920 and in the following years 14 LK-II German designed and built tanks arrived to Hungary in secret. According to retired 1st Lt. Miklos Eder, a researcher of the theme, 2, and later additional 12 LK-II tanks were bought, at a reasonable price, from the German Army. But, he could not name the source. However, two contemporary photos prove the existence of the tanks without question.

The LK-II tank was designed by Josef Vollmer just before the end of the Great War. Analyzing the tank attacks of the allies in 1917 and 1918 German high command realized the need for light and medium tanks besides heavy tanks. Experiments were made with captured Renault FT 17 and MarkA Whippet tanks to gain the knowledge for designing the German light and medium tanks. The designing and manufacturing of the LK-I and LK-II (LK: Leichte Kampfwagen = Light Tank) was led by Vollmer. The first prototype of the LK-II was showed to the representatives of the army on June 13, 1918. The prototype was accepted and 580 tanks were ordered, but the end of the war ended production as well. By September 12, 1918 only a few unfinished LK-IIs were made. Those were destroyed in accordance with the 171. Paragraph of the Versailles Treaty. But not all. The plans of the LK-II and some finished pieces were sold to Sweden. (Miklos Eder writes 6 pieces.) The Swedish redesigned the plans and the tank now designated as Stridsvagen m 21 entered service in 1921. (The author adds that the 'father' of the German panzers, Heinz Guderian finished a commanders� course in a Swedish m 21 in 1929.)

...The author now doubts that the LK-IIs came from Germany mocking the Entente observers as Miklos Eder wrote, he thinks that it is more likely that they were m 21s from Sweden.

Anyway, it is a fact that the training of the Hungarian armored crews was started in 1928 using either of these types. The first armored squadron was formed in 1928 within the RUISK, first without tanks, and then in 1930 with 5 'practice' and 1 training vehicles. (The others were out of order by that time.) Trainings were held with the LK-II types in total secret until 1931 when more modern FIAT tanks were bought from Italy to replace the old vehicles.

...The author compares the LK-II with the Whippet claiming that the LK-II had a rotating turret with one machine gun while the Whippet had a fixed turret with 4 MGs. The Swedish m 21 had an additional machine gun which could be used on either side.

By 1931 Hungary managed to build a good relationship with Italy (in WWI Italy was an enemy) and thus 5 FIAT 3000 B tankettes were purchased. Naturally, these arrived again in total secret designated as �agricultural machines� to replace the LK-IIs.

...The author then writes the story of the development of the Italian FIAT 3000 (post Renault FT 17).

The tanks arrived dismantled in boxes to Hajmasker where the first tests were made.

(McGuba�s note: there is a large military territory and firing range North of Varpalota and Hajmasker which is still in use. I took part in a military exercise there in early 2003.)

...The author describes the unique emblems of the tanks which can be seen in the photos. He clams that the emblem of the RUISK was modeled after the shape of the FIAT 3000 B.

In the period between 1920-1938 all types used by the Hungarian Defense Forces became obsolete too early. As a result of the sanctions there could be no development or production. The army could only purchase already outdated types through secret channels. And still, these ineffective types provided the base for the creation of the armored arm of the Royal Hungarian Defense Forces.

Author: Adam Biro

Rough translation: McGuba

-- Edited by McGuba at 14:55, 2006-10-16

Centurion · Legend

Many thanks for this - much to think about. May I trespass on your good will a little more?

"The author now doubts that the LK-IIs came from Germany mocking the Entente observers as Miklos Eder wrote, he thinks that it is more likely that they were m 21s from Sweden."

Does the author give his reasons for this conclusion?

Centurion · Legend

I think we should thank McGuba for the work in translation.

This information shed some interesting light on a controversial subject and will require some thought before conclusions are drawn and posted (some of the dates are interesting). An initial corroboration of one, minor, item is provided by an interesting paper �Sweden and Clandestine German Rearmament Technology� presented at the Shot (Society for the History of Technology) conference in 2004 (in the Netherlands) by Peter Wulff of the Swedish Defence Research Agency, or Totalf�rsvarets forskningsinstitut. (This has since been published in ICON Journal of the International Committee for the History of Technology vol. 11, 2005). This paper casts some interesting light on the Swedish approach to the restrictions imposed by the Versailles Treaty (to which Sweden was a signatory by virtue of its accession to the League of Nations); it draws heavily on many Swedish archives and government papers. In it Petter Wulff confirms that the 'father' of the German panzers, Heinz Guderian did indeed receive training experience on the Strv M 21 (at it would seem did many other German officers). BTW he also confirms that at least one Swedish tank was sent to Kazan.

McGuba · Corporal

"Does the author give his reasons for this conclusion?"

1. Az LK�II terveit �s p�r darab elk�sz�lt harckocsit m�g a megsemmis�t�s előtt eladt�k Sv�dorsz�gnak. (�der Mikl�s tanulm�nya szerint 6 darabot.)

= The plans of the LK-II and a few finished pieces were sold to Sweden before destroying the rest. (According to Miklos Eders's essay, 6 pieces.)

- So the author thinks the only surviving tanks were sold to Sweden and not Hungary. -

2. Enyh�n sz�lva, kiss� hihetetlennek tűnik a "n�h�ny" darab k�sz kocsib�l 14 darabot az Ellenőrző Bizotts�g orra előtt "elt�ntetni", k�sőbb a szigor� ellenőrz�s mellett eladni, majd N�metorsz�gb�l Magyarorsz�gra sz�ll�tani.

= To say the least, it is a bit unbelievable to "charm away" 14 vehicles of the "few" finished ones right in front of the eyes of the Monitoring Delegation, and then to sell them by the strict monitoring, and then to transport them from Germany to Hungary.

3. A meg�llap�t�st egyetlen t�ny t�masztja al�: az egyetlen fellelhető hazai f�nyk�p egy kis r�szlete. A fegyvertelen harckocsi torny�ban a g�ppuska cs�v�nek befog�kengyele nem az eredeti n�met v�zhűt�ses g�ppuska befog�s�ra, sokkal ink�bb a sv�dek kisebb �tm�rőjű, hosszabb cs�vű g�ppusk�j�ra enged k�vetkeztetni.

= The statement is supported by only one fact: a small portion of the only available photo (of the tank). On the turret of the unarmed tank the reciever (or maybe host?) bow (I am not sure about the correct word usage here) is not for recieving the original German water cooled machinge gun, but seemingly for the Sweden smaller caliber, longer machine gun.

http://www.haditechnika.hu/Archivum/199302/P14/03.jpg

The writing under the photo says:

figure 3.: LK-II type tank No VI in Hajmasker in 1932. (from the collection of Miklos Eder)

...

"some of the dates are interesting" - you are right, I also noticed some contraversity in the dates. It must be a result of the secretive nature of the theme. Probably to avoid uncover, most documents were destroyed if there were any.

Regards,

McGuba

Centurion · Legend

Thanks McGuba

The dates don't make sense if the tanks came from Germany but do if they were ex Swedish. If RUISK didn't have any tanks until some time in 1928 then the vehicles would have had to have laid concealed in Germany for about ten years and, what's more, the Hungarian government would have had to know about them in order to buy them (or those hiding them would have to know about the secret activities in Hungary to offer them). However the Strv m21 upgrade to M 29 appears to have only applied to five of the ten. If the remainder were sold off then 1928 - 1932 makes perfect sense. This would explain the Swedish size Mg port. We know that the Hungarian government was talking to Landsverk (which eventually resulted in the licensing of Toldi production). Doubtless the any deal over the Strv would be kept under cover as it wquld be in violation of the treaty of Trianon to which Sweden (by virtue of membership of the League of Nations) was a party.

McGuba · Corporal

I did not know it is that important, but I read the debate in the new topic Strv m21 / LK II and decided to check another source. Hopefully it will answer some questions and not mix up things even more. So maybe this is for that topic as well.

The book is titled "A Magyar Kir�lyi Honv�ds�g Fegyverzete" i.e. The Armament of the Royal Hungarian Army by Bonhardt, A., S�rhidai, Gy., and Winkler, L. (Budapest: Zr�nyi kiad�, 1992)

(I hope that the Hungarian characters are visible corretly, if not please reply)

It is only in Hungarian, so I made some translation again. Also note that in the preface the authors thank the help of Mikl�s �der researcher for providing the documents and data, so the book was probably influenced by his findings a great deal.

from page 13, the essay part of the book:

"The Period of Complete Hiding (1920-1927)

...

Hungary, taking the advantage of the fact that Germany signed the peace treaty that minimized its army as early as in 1919, bought 14 LK-II (Leichter Kampfwagen) tanks from the stock of the disarming German army in spring 1920, with Swedish mediation. But, these tanks did not enter service as in June 1920 Hungary signed the treaty of Trianon which forbade Hungary to have armoured vehicles, along with warplanes and chemical weapons. The military restrictions of the peace treaty were under the strict control of an Entente Control Committee which was residing in Hungary continuously. Hungarian High Command had an intention to preserve as much illegal war material as possible by mocking the Committee. Two armoured cars (B�ssing-Fross types) were hidden in Szombathely. The 14 tanks (the LK-IIs) were disassembled, their chassis were hidden in different parts of the country, their armours were loaded into railway wagons and were transported all around the country for years."

Unfortunately, the author does not explain Swedish mediation (or maybe assistance / co-opertaion?) in detail. In my view it may mean three things: the tanks arrived to Hungary via Sweden, or Sweden provided help to make the "paper work", or both.

from page 48, type descriptions:

"LK-II (Leichter Kampfwagen II.)

...

Of the 580 LK-IIs, which were ordered by the German High Command, only a few dozen were completed, but these were not used in combat. After the war most of the completed tanks and the plans were bought by Sweden. In 1920 Hungary also bought 14 LK-IIs from the disarming German army for a relatively low price. These were disassembled and were hidden from the Entente Control Committee. After the Committee finished its activity and left the country in 1927, those 5-7 tanks which were still usable (in good condition) were used for training purposes. As the LK-IIs were bought unarmed the training tanks were temporarily equipped with Schwarzlose machine guns. By the early 1930s the tanks became obsolete and were removed from active duty. Then they were used for armour production and anti-armour experiments. The last LK-II was found in the end of the 1930s in �rkenytabor in a shed. As the type was sorted out years before and it had no record it was disassembled and sold as scrap metal."

Here is a scan from the book with the technical data:

http://picbox.uw.hu/uploads/e5ed1fd347.jpg

Regards,

McGuba

Centurion · Legend

Thanks McGuba. Did the paper you've translated have any references other than to Mikl�s �der? Its just that the figures don't match those atributed to �der in the other article that you translated. I think it would be useful to get hold of the copy of the original material that �der was working from.

I don�t know what state this leaves the discussion in. Lets try and unpick some bits so we can focus on the questions that need to be answered:

Firstly the picture matches the Strv M21 and not the two prototype LK IIs as delivered at the end of 1918. So if as this account coupled with Swedish ones is correct (and there are some discrepancies between the two � see below) someone in Germany in 1919 had to redesign the LK II and build 25, at least, with out any one noticing. One has to ask if this is so where did they get the materials; especially the armour plate? Also who did the building? The original order was with Daimler. The name Willhelm Ug� GmbH has been named in connection with the Swedish tanks, however I can find no record of such a company (can any one else?) but there was a company called Wilhelm Unger founded by a Swedish military engineer (an advocate of the use of rockets) who had moved to Berlin before the war. Is this the connection? There is very little on record (at least in English) but I don�t think that this company was into major manufacturing. But I suppose it might have the connections to act as a middleman. The point about the armour plate is important as Germany in 1918 was seriously hampered in the production of more than a handful of tanks by an unavailability of thin armour plate so the question has to be answered � where did all the armour plate suddenly come from? Given the state of Germany in 1919 with its industrial base in near collapse and civil war effectively in progress in a number of cities it would be a remarkable achievement for some organisation to have done such a redesign and built the vehicles - one wonders why it was never celebrated.

Secondly the account clashes with the Swedish version of the LK II Strv M21 saga. Sweden would have had to purchase its tanks in early 1920 not 1921 as has been said elsewhere. There is something odd here.

Thirdly how was it possible to get the tanks to Hungary? Article 12 of the armistice signed with Austro Hungary was in force. This stated �the Allies blockade (land and sea) of Austria-Hungary to remain in force�. This was not removed until after Trianon. The allied monitors in Hungary appear to have been very vigilant. To get from Germany (or Sweden) to Hungary in 1920 the vehicles would have to pass either through Poland, Czechoslovakia or Austria. Poland was at war or in dispute with just about everybody around her; the Czechs had only recently been fighting in Hungary (1919) and likely to be on their guard. It�s noteworthy that attempts by Italy in 1920 to smuggle arms (disguised as agricultural machinery parts - that hoary old ploy) to factions they favoured in Austria and Hungary all failed even though Italy had a common border with Austria.

A few other odd items in the account include the reference to the German army having spare stocks of LK IIs.in 1919. As only 2 prototypes were under test by the end 1918 (and almost certainly destroyed in 1919). The German army can never have taken delivery of any LK IIs. Any stocks would have to be in the factory that built them.

There is a whole range of explanations but at either end of the spectrum we have.

a) The account is substantially incorrect and Hungary acquired five 2nd hand Strv M21s from Sweden when the M29 upgrade was applied. At this time it would have been much easier to quietly ship them from Sweden to Hungary. This is the simplest explanation and perhaps the principle of Occams Razor would apply?

b) In 1919 an unknown German company redesigned the LK II and built 25 or more, acquiring or manufacturing sufficient armour plate etc, concealing this from the Allied Control Commission in Germany. 14 or 15 of these were then shipped to Hungary under the noses of both the Allied Control Commission in Germany and in Hungary and any intervening countries. These were then hidden in such a manner that about ten rusted into unuseability.