Landships II

Les Fowler · Sergeant

RE: WW1 Canadian Armoured Autocar

airdave · Major

haha...yes I did ask this...and then I continued to post...I guess I forgot about my question! lol sorry

thank you, I will stay here!

airdave · Major

Works continues� FULL UPDATE HERE

only got front springs finished last night

still got some adjustments to make to the rea spring parts

-- Edited by airdave on Thursday 10th of November 2011 03:49:05 PM

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Fantastic progress. here are some photos of the wheels. Do remember that the armoured cars had solid tyres, the GS wagons pneumatic tyres and the water tankers had pneumatics on the front and solids on the back. Front and rear wheels had different numbers of spokes as well.

airdave · Major

Chassis and Spring Assembly...installation of Axles

Latest progress posted here at Papermodelers.com

�

Great War Truck · Brigadier

LincolnTanker wrote:
Cricky, that's one big flat twin! does it sound like a 2CV on steroids?

Sorry, i didnt answer your question. it runs a lot slower than the Citroen and sounds more like something heavy�sliding down a flight of stairs. For some reason horses cant stand the sound and totally freak out.

Hopefully, this clip of film (if it works) will give you an insite in to how they sound (on a windy day). if you click on it it should play.

�

Les Fowler · Sergeant

Sounds like it would scare the crap out of the Krauts too once they knew it was the Canadian Motor Machine Gunners coming.

airdave · Major

Full report HERE

�

Finally got a basic Wheel design sorted out.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

I have just uploaded a longer clip of the WD Autocar here if it is of any help:

If you click on the picture it should play.

This one is a genuine WW1 army lorry and is we beleive the sole survivor of the approx 600 purchased by the War Department.

-- Edited by Great War Truck on Tuesday 15th of November 2011 11:37:06 PM

airdave · Major

Tim, I have a question about the colour?

I am suggesting that the paint colour of your frame (and probably the entire vehicle)
is very close to the same colour of the Armored Car in Ottawa Canada.
Based on all the photos I have.
...do you agree?

So, would you have a Paint code? or some reference I could use for my model.

Currently I am using a greyish greeny browny kinda colour...Hex code (html) #73705F RGB R115 G112 B95
It tends to go grey, almost bluish, in flash photos.
Its difficult to get a good feel in my photos, but it was sampled from a section of frame (in a photo).

I'd like to track down an actual paint colour used and adjust my model colour if necessary.

-- Edited by airdave on Wednesday 16th of November 2011 12:48:44 AM

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Sorry. There is no specified colour as such. Ours is matched against some original paint. To give an exact definition of its actual shade well it looks like really fresh cow crap. i dont think there is a right or wrong, although if you get it really wrong then it will look really really wrong.

Tim

airdave · Major

forgot to post this latest update on the design...

Started on the drivetrain components.

More info here

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Thanks Tim for the longer video, the local birds can be heard over the sound of the engine.�There seems to be more machanical sound than exhaust or is that the soundtrack?

airdave · Major

Tim...got any photos of Prop shaft and couplings?
Can't see in any of the photos if there are Universal joints or what.

I'm guessing they're CV style joints?

�

....

�

Lincoln Tanker...Autocar engine running:

-- Edited by airdave on Thursday 17th of November 2011 12:13:12 AM

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Thanks Airdave for that video, it sounds more refined than�the 2CV I had.

I'm impressed with your chassis! the wheel looks good as well.

CharlieC · Legend

�

It reminds me a lot of the British Jowett flat twin engine used in the 1950s Bradford van.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 17th of November 2011 12:48:06 AM

Great War Truck · Brigadier

airdave wrote:
Tim...got any photos of Prop shaft and couplings?
Can't see in any of the photos if there are Universal joints or what.
I'm guessing they're CV style joints?
�i dont have any photos of the one in this Autocar, but i think i have some of the other Autocar. Give me a few days and i will see what i can find.
Tim

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Strangely, i dont have any photos of the shaft. However, this is a photo from the Autocar tipper with a shaft running from the gearbox to the tipper crank. The shaft set up and couplings are much the same, only the prop shaft would be longer. I hope this helps a little bit.
Tim

airdave · Major

thanks again Tim!

Obviously this is not the Drive/Prop Shaft from the Gearbox to the rear End.
But you are saying these are the same couplings as on your driveshaft?
It looks like a flexible ring between the joiner ends?

As you can see in the following photo, I did a preliminary mockup of the parts a few days ago, working from the Blueprint Diagrams of the Autocar Armored Car.
But my coupling joints are nothing like what you are showing me.

(My Prop Shaft is a little small in this pic...it has since been enlarged in diameter)

�

I am basing the design on this Blueprint Diagram...not the clearest diagram I agree,

but you can clearly see (in this closeup) the Bell Housed couplings on the drive Shaft.

Either these are Bell covers over similar couplings (as you have shown) or they are Bell housed Constant velocity style joints.

Is this a much different vehicle than yours then?

-- Edited by airdave on Monday 21st of November 2011 06:06:34 AM

Great War Truck · Brigadier

I double checked and you got it right from the drawings. The coupling i showed is the connection between the engine and water pump. Sorry. The main propshaft was made by spicer and is a Hooke's joint type of coupling hidden inside a thin streel casing and packed with grease and it looks very much like what you have already produced.

airdave · Major

phew! lol I thought I was going to have to redesign those parts!

thats great...I appreciate the feedback!

working on the front hubs and steering parts...I can see the long tie rod connection across the front,
but I can't see how the steering box/linkage attaches to the wheel(s).
do you have any photos that show the linkage and attachment at the spindles?

airdave · Major

work continues...this is where I am at.

Wheels finished, Brake and Wheel Hub attachments, Driveshaft, and some minor part redesigns here and there.
Time to add a few more Engine details and sort out the Steering Linkages.
Not sure how far I will go with Chassis details, there are, of course, many components like linkages, levers, etc
Some of it I can leave up to the Builder.
I'm happy with the basics.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

it seems that we didnt take photos of those parts during the restoration.

Hopefully these ones might help you a little:

�

From the steering box there is a short arm that connects to a rod that runs across to the passenger side wheel hub. As that turns the wheel the tracking rod (which joins at the same location) pulls the other wheel to follow it.

The next photo shows the drivers side hub and how the tracking rod connects to it.

airdave · Major

Got any pics of the exhaust system?

Between my Blueprint Diagram and photos of restored vehicles,
I am completely confused as to the overall size and shape of the Muffler and Pipes.
I also don't understand how the pipes connect to the motor and how they snake their way back through the chassis.

Do the pipes connect to the back of the Cyl. heads and then drop down,
before trailing backwards?
The cross pipe shows behind the mid crossmember...does it then run below the driveshaft?
To what does the muffler attach? and how?

Not sure how complicated I will get with exhaust piping in paper.
(This is an extra detail that a more advanced builder could add)
But if nothing else, I still want to incude a diagram of where and how the pipes should run.

Similar question about the Carburetors? or air/fuel intake system.
Is there some sort of air box? thats piped to the cylinder heads?

Great War Truck · Brigadier

This will answer your question about the exhaust. The ribbed exhausts are original.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

The carb (a stromberg m2) is actually suprisingly small. I have already posted the best photos i have of it, but i will show them again here:

It is located under the floor, with one pipe rising from it, then splitting into two and going straight into the top of the two holes in the front of the blocks, the bottom one being for water.

airdave · Major

Great stuff!

ah, so that Truck has two Mufflers? and they are bracketed to the lower "sub-frame"?

I've got some photos of other Autocar trucks with one larger Muffler, on the lefthand side of the vehicle
further to the rear.
And my blueprint diagram of the Autocar shows the same setup...a Y-pipe leading to a larger Muffler further to the rear.

Any thoughts on these variations, and what I should go with?

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Yes thats rihgt. Two mufflers fixed to the sub frame. Ours are both 1918 chassis and have that arrangement. Earlier ones had the single exhaust. This manifests itself in the US trials vehicles. Not sure about the armoured cars though as i have never seen where they are located. it could be either.

I just found this which you might find useful

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Sorry. it would have saved you a lot of trouble if i found this earlier, but cest la guerre.
The inlets from the carb appear to go to the top hole in the cylinder block, and not the bottom as i suggested.

airdave · Major

wow! that would have been BIG useful! LOL
It'll still come in handy...thanks!

Yup, all the pics of the Armored Car in action have the single Muffler setup
so thats what I am doing.
Its a larger Muffler and mounted back on the main Frame...
I just wish I could see the bracketry...or I will be making it up in my head!

Big issue is the Steering Box...I have two pics from you that show parts of the Gearbox,
but I can't quite make it all out.
I am hunting for more reference on that one.

airdave · Major

okay...I have studied my avaialble photos (of WW1 Autocars) and deicded to go with the single Muffler setup.
Keeping it as simple as possible, I have made up a set of pipes.
Simple butt end glue joints to the cylinder heads
and same with all the pipe connections. (as few pieces as possible)

Only thing I could not reference is the hanger brackets for the Muffler.
Since it sits slightly offset from the main Frame rail and its a bit larger than the single Mufflers, the attachment design must be different.

So, I have had to imagine a pair of brackets.
I have no idea if they resemble the real thing, but they are fairly well hidden once the body goes on.

Just have to tweak the lengths a bit and add some better colouring, but this is what it looks like.

�

That new diagram you posted (Tim) has made a world of difference!!

It allowed me to see some major design errors in the front of my Frame. Specifically the cross members...I was one short and the position of all three forward cross members had to be changed.

This also helps me understand the steering Box position a little better! So I am really glad you shared that diagram!

�

Off again...more hunting...to find a photo of the right type of Steering Box.

-- Edited by airdave on Tuesday 29th of November 2011 09:59:55 PM

Great War Truck · Brigadier

You really are doing an incredible job. I will be spending some time with the trucks in a few weeks and can do some more photos for you. Start a wish list of photos that you want and i will see what i can do.

airdave · Major

Unfortunately I need stuff now...thats kinda why I am a little pushy about this.
I apologize.

It looks like I am down to the last few things for the Chassis, before I can move on to the floor and upper body components.
Theres a limit to what I am going to put in there, but I need the major components.
And the Steering Box is the next thing, and probably the only thing left that I can't pretend to understand.

I'm kind of at a standstill until I get these last few frame components in place.
And I hate being at a standstill! lol

Don't worry, I will find a pic or diagram of this steering box...or just make something up...
and keep working on it.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

The steering box is suprisingly small. I will see if i can find you another photo but i dont think i have one. You can actually see it in the top left of the photo which i posted with the carb on it. It sits on the second cross member with a supporting bracket going to the first member. You can see it again in the photo showing the water pump and fan with the radiator removed three photos above the top exhaust pipe photo. if you cant make them out i will circle them for you and repost.

airdave · Major

yes Tim...I know where it is in those photos.
but you can't actually "see it". lol

you can see a little of the top from the left side, and thats it.
Nowhere near enough even to guess at its overall shape
or how its bracketed to the frame
or what the backside looks like
or how the underside looks (which is the most important view since thats all you'll see once I put the body on!)
And I have no clue how it connects to the steering linkage.

lol
see, I told ya...its gonna start

airdave · Major

I have taken a good look at my photos again.
I have about six that show some parts of the Steering Box.
Unfortunately they're almost all from the same angle
and its very difficult to see things clearly.
There is one shot of the front end of the frame, which has given me a new insight into how the "pitman" arm comes down to connect to the steering linkage.

So, using my Mechanic's brain (I actually do have a Class A license),
I have put some thought into it and came up with this.

Now you have to remember, that from an artists's point of view and for the purposes of card model design
I have to stylize and simplify the object into some basic shapes and buildable pieces.
Knowing what you know about the steering, does this resemble the Gear Box?

The light blue parts represent the gear Box components.

[Grey is frame...Dk Grey is cross members...Floor Pan and Column are also included]

�

-- Edited by airdave on Wednesday 30th of November 2011 12:40:50 AM

Great War Truck · Brigadier

I have checked with my brother who is very familiar with the steering box and he says you have got it spot on.
What next?

airdave · Major

Thanks Tim
Its not spot on...but its a good start.

I say its not spot on, because I am already redoing it.
One of the guys over at the American Historical Truck Society
found me some pics of a field rusty wreck, and some good angles of the backside of the steering box.

I would still like to see from underneath, specifically the "pitman" arm and steering linkage connection
but I may just have to fake it (so I can move on)

I've also got to deal with some of the other large parts in the front area of the frame.

I do have one question...your Truck chassis doesn't show the cross member that sits ahead of the radiator.
I have pics of one chassis with this forward cross member...but it also seems to have a lower fitted radiator.
Take a look at the pics...tell me if is the same as your Truck or what differences you see..

Great War Truck · Brigadier

OK. That looks like a viable restoration project to me. Just need to get that engine which was on a stand from earlier on in this thread.
There were two different types of rad arrangement. I think cooling became a problem and the rad was lowered slightly. I think that rad is the samea s ours apart from the vertical bracket which is unusual. Compare it to this one:

airdave · Major

Yup...I understand� the Rad position now, thanks!

I think the thing that really threw me was the hole through the core of the radiator to allow the crank handle.

....

�

followup on the Steering Linkage...

got the Steering Box in place, which is fine...got the connecting linkage in place, which is fine...

still unsure of the lower extending arm (pitman arm?) and how it extends below the steering box, its length, size and how it connects to the steering linkage.

I'm hoping someone can come up with a photo of the underside to help me understand.

-- Edited by airdave on Friday 2nd of December 2011 03:55:31 PM