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Post Info TOPIC: More than one Holt G9


Legend

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More than one Holt G9
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I've been trying to put together an article on the various tractor based early American tank designs. I've not been helped by the fact that of the paucity of information available some appears contradictory. looking at the photos said to be of the Holt G9 I am struck by the fact that there appear to be either two different tractor tanks or the same vehicle with revised bodywork. before incorporating this into a formal paper I thought I'd seek some views.


I enclose three photos and montage of all three together (to make comparison easier). The middle and right hand photo in the montage are of the same Holt, one taken from the side and one from the rear. They are clearly marked G9 Caterpillar. However the left hand machine has significant differences. Its turret is clearly well forward of the'bulged out' hull section where I assume the driver sat (his view must have been similar to that of a locomotive diver's). Whereas on the other machine the turret is towards the rear behind the driver's position. The left hand Holt also has a semi circular 'step' in the hull right at the front which the other does not.


To confuse matters further pictures 1 and 3 are captioned in some sources as being by the Los Angeles River whilst, as you can see, the 2nd is labeled as being at the Sandy Hool proving ground (which was in New Jersey). Both locations make equal sense as Sandy Hook was the precursor to Aberdeen (and so a logical place to trial such a machine) and not far from Holt's East Coast plant whilst Holt's HQ was in California.


So two different machines or the same machine at different dates with a different configuration?



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aka Robert Robinson Always mistrust captions


Brigadier

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I got the impression it was the same vehicle - just with different turret arrangements.

Attached is a photocopied thumbnail of a picture in the Bovington Tank Museums archives. The museum was kind enough to send me a few pages of photo-copied thumbnails so I could see what they had. I had requested to see all the pictures relevant to early WWI USA tanks that they had. There was not a heap, but there were a few I hadn't seen before.

These appear to be some plans for the G-9, and show it with both turrets. Should clear some things up. And remember! This is a thumbnail photocopy of the original image, which was then scanned by me, and posted here. The original is presumably of far higher quality. The image is courtesy of the Tank Museum.

---Vil.

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G9Thumbnail.jpg (71.6 kb)
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Legend

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Interesting questions, Centurion. These are my observations, with labelled photos...


I accept that the middle and right machines are one and the same, therefore, the question is: are the left and midlle/right machines also the same?


The labelled images are: left machine, G9-1; middle/right machine, G9-2.


First, note that G9-1 has the turret over the wheel, whereas G9-2 has it over the tracks (as you've mentioned, I think).


G9-1:



G9-2:



Key:


1: Square plate at the front of the turret, through which the gun protrudes; appears to be the same on both machines.


2: A sort of curved 'fin', which appears to be the same on both.


3: Flat sloped area; again, can be interpreted to be the same feature on both G9-1 and G9-2.


4: Hinged flap, in the same position on both.


5: Open flap on G9-1; could it be closed on the photo of G9-2? There seems to be a faint outline indicating this to be the case.


Also, not labelled but worth mentioning - the armoured body appears to be mounted on a sort of angle-iron frame going all around. This is very clear on G9-1, but can also, I believe, be made out on G9-2. Plus, the small 'Caterpillar' sign partially covering the tracks on G9-2 might be the boxy thing seen on the track unit of G9-1 (roughly level with the elbow of the chap standing in the middle).


I believe that they are one and the same machine, with the same body, but that the turret has merely been fitted at opposite ends at different times.


Bugger, your photo attachments have re-attached to my post!



-- Edited by Roger Todd at 23:53, 2006-10-22

Attachments
holts.jpg (113.3 kb)
g9.jpg (79.3 kb)
am-holt1.jpeg (23.9 kb)
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Legend

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Vilkata, interesting sketch! Now that I've seen that with two turrets, it resolves a minor mystery on the photo G9-1:


Above the red numbers '4' and '5' is the curved edge of something on the roof. From your sketch, V, I conclude that that is the edge of the larger turret.


Now clearly G9-2 has only one turret, so I now modify my earlier contention:


G9-2 shows the machine with only one turret. G9-2 shows the same machine with the same turret in the same place but with a second, smaller, turret added over the wheel.



-- Edited by Roger Todd at 23:58, 2006-10-22

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Hero

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Hello Gents


  From my research on the Holt G9, I have found, that two G9's were built, with different turrets, and internal arrangements, i.e.engine etc.


.Rockenbach ,Paper 1098C U.S.A.E.F.T.C. states that two experimental Holts designated G9 was developed, based on the Holt 150. two versions were designed with the same outward apperance. The two versions were distinguished by there turret variations, and engines.  G9a was built with the standard Holt 150 engine, forward and aft turrets.  G9b was built with a Daimler 6 cylinder used by the English in there MkIV, and an aft turre.


I have also inclosed a copy of a magazine I own with the G9a on the cover.


ATB


Tim R



-- Edited by Tim R at 03:08, 2006-10-23

Attachments
LD1.jpg (50.5 kb)
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Brigadier

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Very cool magazine cover Tim! One wonders how the G9 was supposed to steer... In at least one photograph, plus that magazine cover, the G9 is depicted with its front steering wheel off the ground - making it unsteerable! Such a steering arangement could have never worked in the quagmire of a WWI battlefield.

But still, the G9 is a very cool vehicle I think. Especially fitted with that big Daimler engine!! The vehicle would have been very capable as a sort of heavy armored car. Often you see pictures of Lanchesters and Rolls Royce armored cars bogged down on regular churned up roads, not in any sort of no-mans land. A G9 functioning as a sort of heavy road scout, supply route patrol, etc, could have been very useful - especially because it probably could still spare the power to haul some heavy loads. The Holt tractor was, after all, a prime mover. A G9 hauling two cargo wagons behind it, ready to engage any would-be sabateurs lurking in the craters off the road, would be a scenario fit for this vehicle.

---Vil.

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Legend

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Thanks everybody.


Vilkata's diagram has some significant variations on the photos (as well as two turrets) in that the front is more or less sheer.


Tim I do like the illustration including the very optimistic impression that the artist gives that the G9 would move so fast as to leave a visible slip stream!


I think that the biggest steering problem would be how the driver could see where he was going, the only tank design of the time with a worse view for the driver appears to be Mcfies's last landship.


So two G9s but any ideas on the locations? LosAngeles v Sandy Hook?



__________________
aka Robert Robinson Always mistrust captions
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