Landships II

Max · Lieutenant

Hotchkiss machine guns

Centurion · Legend

Max wrote:

Hi ,

found some pictures of the French 1914 Hotchkiss.Is this gun the same as in the British tanks ?

Or are the British MG updated or upgraded for tanks ?

Max
Yes and no. The British Hotchkiss Mk 1 as fitted to the first British tanks had different cooling fins (more but smaller) than the French army model. There was a problem with the strip magazine feed in British tanks as there was insufficient room for the full length strip and a shorter one had to be used. This gave the gunner insufficient rounds to zero in on a target before having to load a new trip and start over again. Later British tanks used the Mk 2 which was converted to use a belt feed.

28juni14 · Hero

Seem to recall the Hotchkiss MGs in a Mk IV female I saw were fitted with shoulder stocks. Am I mistaken?

Centurion · Legend

The British Mk 1 Hotchkiss had a detachable shoulder stock but I would have thought that it would prove awkward in the confined space in a tank. I've never seen a photo of a Mk 2 with a stock (which doesn't meant it didn't have a detachable one) but the same space argument would apply. Given that one original tactical doctrine was for crews of disabled tanks to dismount the guns and join the infantry (it subsequently proved that fighting the tank as a stationary pill box was often very useful in haulting German counter attacks) having the means to fit a stock could be useful as it would make firing from a prone position easier.

J Fullerton · Captain

Hmmm...I thought the only Hotchkiss that the British tanks used was the 1909 portative (or Benet-Mercie), which was a completely different animal from the 1914 full-sized version that was used in the French tanks.

I'm having difficulty opening files today for some reason, so I can't comment on Max's attachments.

Centurion · Legend

The version I'm talking of is the British 303 one (which I think dates from about 1914) and is similar to the portative which was 8 mm ?

The Mk 2 did in fact have a detachable 'skeleton' stock

J Fullerton · Captain

There could very well have been a 1914 British 303 model of the portative 1909, but did the French have such a thing? Ian Hogg has the British cavalry adopting the portative, but doesn't give a date (in the book at hand, anyway).

Not being able to see the photos of the original post, I assumed that the 1914 French Hotchkiss mentioned would be the large version, which was an update of the 1897.

28juni14 · Hero

The Hotchkiss M1909 weapon system, complete with bipod was part of Belgium's TOE. I have never seen any data to suggest the French had adapted the weapon.

gothic69 · Private

The pictures you posted are of the standard french machine gun the Hotchkiss modele 1914 which is a totally different weapon to that used by the British. This weapon was designated the Benet-Mercie Machine Rifle Model 1909 (U.S.A), Hotchkiss Portative (Europe) and the Hotchkiss Mark 1 (U.K). The Mark 1 was used by the British cavalry when their vickers guns were removed and grouped together in the Machine Gun Corps and Lewis guns were found to be to cumbersome. The gun used in British Tanks was the Hotchkiss Mark 1* this differed only by having a handgrip fitted inplace of the buttstock and the feed was converted to fire 3 round links in a belt instead of the strip feed a picture can be found at the Imperial War Museum. I hope this was of use .