Landships II

Sure, why not? My own expertise in that field is limited, but if someone wants to write something on any of the big WW1-forts, I will sure post it. (I do have a lot of photos from Verdun, though, of all the major forts, taken during vists there.)

Anyone willing to have a go? No need to make it too ambitious. Even a small article would be interesting.

 

If you want stuff on forts and fortifications, go to Site O (www.siteo.net).

There's a mound of interesting stuff with good links.

A (usually) monthly newsletter gives info on new fortifications, new books, tours, etc - well worth subscribing to.

Perhaps we should cross-link the sites - if someone out there can do it.
Tony

well why dont we start with leige as it was the first fortress system to fall? i have a doctors appointment today, but after it i will gather up some of the information ive found around the web and post it here, including the pictures i have found.

ok, im on a computer at school so this may need spell check. anyway

 

during the early days before the war germany was poised for a preemptive invasion of france, this plan hinged on being able to take paris quickly and move out from there, unfortunately a large string of fortifications and traps stood in their way. They saw a solution to this in having the main invasion force hit leige and namur in the north, and verdun south of that, after smashing through the forts they would use belgiums roads and railways to quickly move troops through into northern france and down just west of paris and encircle the french army before it could mobilize. all that realy stood in there way were the aforementioned forts, this first to fall was the fortress town of leige. to do this the german army hit the city from the north, south and east, the fighting lasted from the 4th of august to the 16th. Most of the forts fell after having their guns taken out of commission and being hit by gas attacks, this was a foreshadowing of the war to come, esspecialy when the big berthas were brought out. the forts were built in the late 1800s and at the time the largest gun was 21cm, the forts had a handful of large calibre guns, ranging from 12cm to 21cm suplemented by a number of 5.7cm quick fireing guns, with concrete to resist 21cm shells. the key victory in this battle was the destruction of fort loncin. it started with succedingly heavier bombardments, starting with 10.5cm's and by the third day going to 21's finaly the germans brought out high explosive shells, which had previously not existed, and softend up the fort, then the 42cm berthas were brought in, within 2 hours and 20 minutes, the fort exploded, taking 350 men with her whose bodys still reside in the wreckage, after that most of the forts still holding out gave up.

a document written by one of the belgian generals about the fall which he witnessed and the letter to his king about it (taken from the gwpda):

On the 11th the Germans started bombarding us with 7- and 10-centimeter cannon. On the 12th and 13th they brought their 21-centimeter guns into action. But it was not until the 14th that they opened their heaviest fire and began their destruction of the outer works. On that day, at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, a German officer approached to within 200 yards of the fort with a signaling flag in his hand; and shortly afterwards, the siege gunners, having adjusted their range, began a fearful firing, that lasted a couple of hours. The battery on the left slope was destroyed, the enemy keeping on pounding away exclusively with their 21-centimeter cannons.

The third phase of the bombardment began at 5 o'clock in the morning of the 15th, firing being kept up without a break until two in the afternoon. Grenade wrecked the arcade under which the general staff were sheltering. All light was extinguished by the force of the explosion, and the officers ran the risk of asphyxiation by the horrible gases emitted from the shell. When firing ceased, I ventured out on a tour of inspection on the external slopes, which I found had been reduced to a rubble heap. A few minutes later, the bombardment was resumed. It seemed as though all the German batteries were together firing salvoes. Nobody will ever be able to form any adequate idea of what the reality was like. I have only learned since that when the big siege mortars entered into action they hurled against us shells weighing 1,000 kilos (nearly a ton), the explosive force of which surpasses anything known hitherto. Their approach was to be heard in an acute buzzing; and they burst with a thunderous roar, raising clouds of missiles, stones and dust.

After some time passed amid these horrors, I wished to return to my observation tower; but I had hardly advanced a few feet into the gallery when a great blast passed by, and I was thrown violently to the ground. I managed to rise, and continued on my way, only to be stopped by a choking cloud of poisonous gas. It was a mixture of the gas from an explosion and the smoke of a fire in the troop quarters. We were driven back, half-suffocated. Looking out of a peep hole, I saw to my horror that the fort had fallen, slopes and counter-slopes being a chaos of rubbish, while huge tongues of flame were shooting forth from the throat of the fortress. My first and last thought was to try and save the remnant of the garrison I rushed out to give orders, and saw some soldiers, whom I mistook for Belgian gendarmes. I called them, then fell again. Poisonous gases seemed to grip my throat as in a vise. On recovering consciousness, I found my aide-de-camp, Captain Colland, standing over me, also a German officer, who offered me a glass of water. They told me I had swooned, and that the soldiery I had taken for Belgian gendarmes were, in fact, the first band of German troops who had set foot inside the forts. In recognition of our courage, the Germans allowed me to retain my sword.

Sir: -- After honorable engagements on August 4th, 5th and 6th, I considered that the forts of Liège could only play the "role" of "fort d'arret." I nevertheless maintained military government in order to coordinate the defense as much as possible, and to exercise moral influence upon the garrison.

Your Majesty is not ignorant that I was at Fort Loncin on August 6th at noon. You will learn with grief that the fort was blown up yesterday at 5.20 p.m., the greater part of the garrison being buried under the ruins. That I did not lose my life in that catastrophe is due to the fact that my escort, Commandant Collard, a sub-officer of infantry who unfortunately perished, the gendarme, Thevenim, and my two orderlies, Vanden Bosche and Jos Lecocq, drew me from a position of danger, where I was being asphyxiated by gas from the exploded powder. I was carried into a trench, where a German captain named Guson gave me a drink, after which I was made prisoner and taken to Liège in an ambulance. I am convinced that the honor of our arms has been sustained. I have not surrendered either the fortress or the forts. Deign, Sire, to pardon my defects in this letter. I am physically shattered by the explosion of Loncin. In Germany, whither I am proceeding, my thoughts will be, as they have ever been, of Belgium and the King. I would willingly have given my life the better to serve them, but death was denied me.

pictures of leige after bombardment:
http://www.gwpda.org/photos/bin06/imag0582.jpg

http://www.gwpda.org/photos/bin07/imag0695.jpg

http://www.gwpda.org/photos/bin01/imag0078.jpg

reccomdended links:
http://www.geocities.com/~brialmont/ <-- the leige fortification website, with plenty of lovely pictures and my main source for this.

www.gwpda.org <-- another great source for all things WWI

 

enjoy!

Centurion wrote:

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There were actually 12 forts at Liege. You've covered well the fall of the last of these - Loncin. It would be useful if we could add some info on the German attacks on the previous eleven. The concrete used in the construction of the Belgian forts was suspect. At the same time the design concentrated the big guns together in a central citadel (see diagram enclosed) with a common magazine so that a 420 mm shell penetrating the dodgy concrete could blow the whole fort up in one go. The Italian forts in the Alpine barrier had the same design problem (with the same result).
I've sent Peter an article on WW1 forts in general with  a (very) brief outine of the main fort actions from Turkey to Belgium. My idea was that people could use this as a general background and add detailed articles on individual forts. I don't know if he'll use it (he hasn't replied yet) but I think if you worked your piece into an article on Loncin in particular it would make a could starting point for the more detailed fort specific articles. I'm trying to put together one on the German fort at Tsing Tao (where the beer comes from). Roger Todd has already covered some of this  on Landships (mainly from the seige guns viewpoint)but there is a lot more of interest.

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ya, i didnt include the others because their fall didnt have as great an impact as the fall of loncin, i read the entire site i linked to, which is more of a proper site on leige completely, and i had to summerize it otherwise it would be too long, and would be plagarism, so i summed it up in one easy to take dose, the idea being if someone wanted to read more they could follow the link to the site on it, which not only includes information about the german attack strategy, (and they didnt mention the concrete, they rather said it was the high explosive shells the germans were using which didnt exist when the forts were built) but also details on the fort design, and the design and battle record of each individual fort. even down to the latrine conditions! i merely focused on loncin in particular because it was the most spectacular victorys of that battle, because each fort was designed differently and fell for different reasons youd have to do what they did on that site which would be to make one page for each fort! so i just summed up the cornerstone of the battle, the reason why the fort was chosen, and the personal description of its fall, if people wish to know more about it, then they can follow the link, like the rest of landships its merely a primer on the complex subject. thats why i was careful to use the term "fortress city" instead of "fort".

Centurion wrote:

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There are a number of accounts of the siege of Liege but a lack of consistency  (for example some give 8th of August as the day on which Fort Barchon was taken by infantry assault and others the 10th). Even the spelling of the fort names varies (this may be a French/Flemish thing) I think the following is probably the essence of the events leading up to and following the fall of Fort Loncin.

 

Liege was defended by twelve forts these being in clockwise order Liers, Pontisse,Barchon, Evegnée, Fleron, Chaudfontaine, Embourg, Boncalles, Flemalle, Hollogne,  Loncin and Lantin. Liege proper was defended by an old citadel. The German army began its attack on Liege on the 4th August 1914. At this time the heavy siege guns had not arrived but the field guns opened a bombardment. A night attack on the 5th/6th August was beaten back by the Belgian defenders the Germans sustaining heavy losses. On the 7th Ludendorff, then a liaison officer, found the 14th Brigade without a commander and assumed command. He was able to take advantage in the fact that the Belgian forts were not positioned so as to be able to give effective  mutually supporting fire  and infiltrated his force between Fort Evegnee and Fort Fleron, meeting no resistance. A surprise raid on General Lehman’s head quarters drove him into Fort Loncin and in the meantime Ludendorff moved on Liege which had just suffered a Zeppelin raid. The outdated Citadel was easily overcome which effectively gave Ludendorff control of the city. The forts were still intact but had to be taken as they dominated the German line of advance along the railway.

An infantry attack on Fort Barchon on the 8th was driven off but a second assault succeeded on the 10thand the neighbouring Fort Evangee fell soon after. Fort Fleron remained intact but effectively out of the game as the cupola hoisting mechanism for the main guns was irretrievably jammed. The German heavy artillery then arrived on the 12th August this being made up of 420 mm Krupp howitzers and 305mm Skoda howitzers. By 12.30 on the 13th Fort Pontisse had been smashed to rubble. In the next two days the same fate befell six more forts (including the disabled Fleron that attempted to resist with its secondary guns). The last of these was Fort Loncin. After the fall of Loncin the remaining two forts surrendered without further resistance. So grat was the destruction at Loncin that over half the garrison remained buried in the ruins and it remains a war grave to this day.

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what say we combine the two? your first paragraph and my article, that way it gives info about the other forts, as well as the fall of loncin, and also says why the germans attacked leige. also the first forts taken guarded the rail lines, which is why they were taken first, as securing the rail lines was the primary objective, im also interested in this zepplin attack, was it the first of the war?

Centurion wrote:

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That was the idea

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lol sorry, its a bit early in the day and im still a little out of it :p

Centurion wrote:

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theburk wrote:

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what say we combine the two? your first paragraph and my article, that way it gives info about the other forts, as well as the fall of loncin, and also says why the germans attacked leige. also the first forts taken guarded the rail lines, which is why they were taken first, as securing the rail lines was the primary objective, im also interested in this zepplin attack, was it the first of the war?

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Almost there I think. yes it was the first Zeppelin raid ever but not the first air raid - those go back to 1911 or 1912 depending on your definition of an air raid. I'm not sure about your reference to gas attacks. If gas had been used in Belgium in 1914 there would have been treble the noise about atrocities. I'm 99% certain that the Germans were not using gas at this time. Also your ref that says Verdun after Namur and Liege I think should be Antwerp. One of the things that perhaps we ought to emphasise is that the easy success that the germans had with the belgium forts made them underestimate how difficult the Verdun forts would be in 1916 (the Verdun forts were better designened and had decent concrete).

 

Do you want me to combine the two texts? if so I'll e mail you the result for checking before we send it to Peter.

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sure, the bit about verdun namur and leige is because those were the first forts the german army went up against, they pushed through leige and namur onward to antwerp and brussles, but the head of the army thrusts hit namur and leige but the lower thrust was halted at verdun. and i am also a little skeptical about the gas attacks but because they mentioned lack of ventalation i assumed it was poison gas, so feel free to omit that as it may be gas from the guns, and according to another more reliable source the first gas attack wasnt until january 1915, but also says and i quote:
"At about the same time as the publication of these papers was causing a mild stir, the french army developed a rifle grenade charged with a small quantity of tear-gas. This was intended for the attack of casemates and fortifications by fireing the grenade through the loopholes and so incapacitating the defenders. These grenades were brought into the public view when they were used in 1912 by the military police authorities when the notorious Bonnot Gang -The Motor Bandits- was trapped in a house at Choisy-le-Roi."
stating that shortly after the war began the german high command wanted to develop its own tear gas and did so in late 1914 perfecting it in early 1915 and using it at bolimow in poland. so yes this realy couldnt be poison gas and that was a mistake on my part, they were probably asphixiating from the gun fumes. and again feel free to edit that out.

Propellant fumes from the shell explosions. Especially Bertha's and Rosa's big ones.

-- Edited by von Josephu at 21:32, 2006-11-15

theburk - I've merged the two sets of text, pictures etc. Before I send it to Peter you need to take a dekko at it but I don't have an e mail address to send it to (its now too big to put up on the forum). My e mail address is on my profile (click on mu avatar). Send me an e mail and I'll attach the article on return. I think between the two of us its not bad. If I don't hear in the next day or two I'll send it on to Peter (although he seems to have gone e-deaf again).

Hello Josh!

Please use the name of the town Liége, not leige. It is pronounced "Li-ej-e" and was and is centre of the begium arms manufacterers, like i.e. FN ( Fabrique Nationale des Armes
de Guerre, Herstal).
Concerning the use of Poison Gas the foowing data are reveiling first uses of the
following agents:

agent: Nation: first issued:

teargas (chlorineacetophenon,CN) France 02.Feb.1915
near NAMUR in Hand-Grenades!!!

Chlorine, 150 tons in 4o-l-bottles Germany 22.April 1915
near GHELUVELT, Ypres

Xylylbromide (Teargas) Germany same day
used in flanks of chlorine-front)

Chlorine-Phosgene (asphyciating) Germany 31. May 1915
95%Cl, 5% Phosgene)
BOLIMOV, near WARSAW

PerChlorMethylMercaptane France 08.Septembre 1915
(suffocating agent in arty ammo)

Blue-Star (70%Phosgene/20% Great Britain 09.January 1916
Sulphuric Cloride) FROMMELLES/F

pure Phosgene France 21.February 1916
VERDUN-Fleury

Di-Phosgene Germany 07. May 1916
VERDUN / Doaumont

Vincennite France 01. July 1916
(Arsenic+Arsenic-Trichloride)


Chlorine-Picrinate (asphyciating) Germany 31.January 1917
ARMENTIERES/F

Chlorine-Arsine-Cloride Germany 11. July 1917
(Vomiting Agent)NIEUPORT/B

Yperite, Lewisite, LOST Germany 13. July 1917
DiChlorDiethyleneDisulfide

K2-Stoff, PhenylCarbylArsinCloride Germany 07. Sept. 1917
(Vomiting Agent penetrating gas
filters/ gas-masks)

This diagram should help with the dates of first gas "usage".

Best regards,

Pody

-- Edited by Pody at 22:11, 2006-11-20

theburk wrote:

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heh sorry, i am terrible with mixing letters up, esspecialy ael names, like michael, or ishmael, also im not sure how to do the accent mark on a normal american keyboard O.o but anyway thank you, those tear gas grenades are the ones i posted about earlier in the thread that the french military police used against those criminals.

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Josh and anyone else interested,

I've attached a chart in doc and pdf format showing the codes to enter to get accented and other foreign (to English) letters. All you need to do to make the character appear is hold down the "Alt" key and type in the code including the leading zero. So for Liége, you type Li(Alt + 0233)ge.

Hope this helps.

Pody wrote:

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Concerning the use of Poison Gas the foowing data are reveiling first uses of the
following agents:

agent: Nation: first issued:

teargas (chlorineacetophenon,CN) France 02.Feb.1915
near NAMUR in Hand-Grenades!!!

Chlorine, 150 tons in 4o-l-bottles Germany 22.April 1915
near GHELUVELT, Ypres

Xylylbromide (Teargas) Germany same day
used in flanks of chlorine-front)

Chlorine-Phosgene (asphyciating) Germany 31. May 1915
95%Cl, 5% Phosgene)
BOLIMOV, near WARSAW

PerChlorMethylMercaptane France 08.Septembre 1915
(suffocating agent in arty ammo)

Blue-Star (70%Phosgene/20% Great Britain 09.January 1916
Sulphuric Cloride) FROMMELLES/F

pure Phosgene France 21.February 1916
VERDUN-Fleury

Di-Phosgene Germany 07. May 1916
VERDUN / Doaumont

Vincennite France 01. July 1916
(Arsenic+Arsenic-Trichloride)


Chlorine-Picrinate (asphyciating) Germany 31.January 1917
ARMENTIERES/F

Chlorine-Arsine-Cloride Germany 11. July 1917
(Vomiting Agent)NIEUPORT/B

Yperite, Lewisite, LOST Germany 13. July 1917
DiChlorDiethyleneDisulfide

K2-Stoff, PhenylCarbylArsinCloride Germany 07. Sept. 1917
(Vomiting Agent penetrating gas
filters/ gas-masks)

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In fact Tear Gas first used by the Germans
Jan. 31 1915 - Germans used tear gas at Bolimow in Poland.