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Post Info TOPIC: Christie M1919 - A thorn in J. Walter Christies memory?


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Christie M1919 - A thorn in J. Walter Christies memory?
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I was typing up a comparison of the Vickers 1921 No.2 Male vehicle compared to other advanced Post-WWI tanks. The Christie M1919, the USA M1921 Medium D-esque vehicle, the Char Delaunay Belleville, etc. I was going to try and show how these vehicles were inferior to the Vickers 1921 in every way.

I failed.

I never fully realised just how amazing the Christie M1919 was! The two impressive things about the Vickers 1921 are its revolving turret, and sloped and curved frontal armor.

Well, if you look at this frontal picture of the M1919, it has better armor sloping on the frontal arc of the vehicle than a lot of WWII tanks!


It had twice the armor thickness of the Vickers 1921, a larger gun (albeit, a larger shell at a slower velocity - the M1919 seems to have a very short barrelled cannon), and the sloping armor along the front of the vehicle was comparable or greater to the Vickers 1921.

Indeed, the only way the Vickers 1921 was superior was in speed - it was over twice as fast.

After Christie built the M1919, it was cut up and rebuilt by the military with a low fixed superstructure mounting all weaponry in the front of the vehicle. This lowered the weight, and increased speed.

It is interesting to note that, after the M1919, nearly all of Christies designs used guns in fixed mounts in the hull, and all of them sacrificed armor for speed. Could this have been because of the rejection of the M1919 by the army, and them hacking up his masterpiece and turning into a faster inferior vehicle with a fixed superstructure mounted gun?

With that armor sloping, huge gun mantlet, thick armor, and low tracks, the M1919 would have been an advanced fighting vehicle even if had been built in 1930! Although, again, it is important to note that the vehicle did have an extreme flaw - it was quite slow, although you would think this could be remedied as superior engines became available. In addition, one would think hand traversing that huge turret would be quite a pain.

I just found this interesting. I know we have had a number of threads on the M1919, but this really was the most advanced tank of the time.

---Vil.
P.S. Speaking of which - have we come to the conclusion that the vehicle was of welded or cast design? There doesn't seem to be any large rivets in any of the pictures I have seen. Perhaps this goes even further to show how advanced this design was for the time!

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Fantastic! This design must surely compete with the FT-17 as the real ancestor of all modern tanks!

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The  Christie M1919 was abandoned not through any fault of design nor through a dislike by some army officers of Christie (although by accounts he was a difficult man to get along with) but because of Federal bureaucracy. The Department of Transport managed to get a ban on the building of tanks over a certain weight (I can look up the exact weight if necessary). This scuppered several medium tank designs and put a complete block on heavy tank design. The Christie with its nice heavy cast armour and turret fell foul of this fiat. It apparently took the Department of Defense some time (years) to get the restriction lifted.


As it happens the British Ministry of Department imposed a not disimilar restriction by getting clauses inserted in some railway bill that imposed a legal limit on the diameter of a turret ring. It proved incredibly dificult to get this anulled (1941 I believe) which is the reason why so many otherwise good British tank s were undergunned.



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well considering that christie invented his tank of the 30s which lead to the t-34 and was the real inspiration for modern tanks all round esspecialy when concerned with suspension, i think christie alreayd has plenty of claim. but ya, christie came up with a ton of crazy designs during that era, several prototype tanks that were intentionaly futuristic, including one that looked like a giant metal turtle shell! as well as a flying tank design. which was recently featured in the book "my tank is fight"

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Centurion wrote:



The  Christie M1919 was abandoned not through any fault of design nor through a dislike by some army officers of Christie (although by accounts he was a difficult man to get along with) but because of Federal bureaucracy. The Department of Transport managed to get a ban on the building of tanks over a certain weight (I can look up the exact weight if necessary). This scuppered several medium tank designs and put a complete block on heavy tank design. The Christie with its nice heavy cast armour and turret fell foul of this fiat. It apparently took the Department of Defense some time (years) to get the restriction lifted.


As it happens the British Ministry of Department imposed a not disimilar restriction by getting clauses inserted in some railway bill that imposed a legal limit on the diameter of a turret ring. It proved incredibly dificult to get this anulled (1941 I believe) which is the reason why so many otherwise good British tank s were undergunned.





 


yes, also it was made impossible for the calvary to have tanks, so when the calvary did finaly start building tanks, they called them "combat cars" which is why the christie which was the inspiration for the bt series of tanks was built it was (if i remember correctly) called the T1 combat car. i think that the ban was lifted very late in the 30s, it might not have even been lifted in 1940!



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and now for some of those amazing christie armored weapons from the 20's and 30's


the 1921 christie amphibious:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieAmphib1921a-IonFonosch.jpg


the 1922 christie amphibious:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieAmphib1922b-IonFonosch.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieAmphib1922-IonFonosch.jpg


and the 1923 christie amphibious tank:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieAmphib1923c-IonFonosch.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieAmphib1923b-IonFonosch.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieAmphib1923a-IonFonosch.jpg


the christie t1 "combat car":


the christie t2 (various models):

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieT2E1.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieT1-combatcar.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieT1-combatcar-a.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieT1-combatcar-b.jpg

the christie M1936:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieM1932-IonFonosch.jpg


the christie M1935A:


the christie M1935B:


the christie M1936:

apparently the brits bought a few of these as tractors!

the M1937:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-ChristieM1937.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/lighttanks/uslt-M1938.jpg


various christie mechanations from the 40's:





some of these are touched up pictures, and the TANKS! website has this disclaimer to offer about the dates of these vehicles:
"To further confuse everyone, the Christie "M" series date is not always acurate. Christie determined that his designs were so futuristic that he would "guess" at a future date when he thought that the rest of the industry would catch up with him."

not a christie but still fun,some crazy holt tanks:

the holt '75' a mockup built in 1916:


the best '75':


the holt G9 basicly just a heavily armored tractor:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-HoltG9-a.jpg


the best tracklayer:


the christie M1919 and M1921:

more pictures of the 1919:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-Christie-M1919.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-ChristieM1919.jpg

the christie M1928:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-ChristieM1928-1.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-ChristieM1928-IonFonosch.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-ChristieM1928.jpg

the M1931, which eventualy became the BT series of russian tanks, which of course lead to the t-34 and all modern tanks:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-Christie-M1931.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-ChristieM1931.jpg

the christe T1 and T3 series:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-Christie-T3a.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-Christie-T3b.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-ChristieM1932-IonFonosch.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-T3E2.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-T3E2a.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-T3.jpg

the T4 series:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-Christie-T4.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-Christie-T4a.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-T4mediumtanka.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-T4E1mediumtank.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-T4mediumtankb.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-Christie-T4b.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-T4E2.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-T4.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/mediumtanks/usmt-T4-1.JPG


more not christie but fun tanks:
the stanley steamer steam tank:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/heavytanks/usht-Steam-Tank-Tracklaying-a.jpg


an interesting cargo carrier:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/cargo-personnel/uscpc-buick.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/cargo-personnel/uscpc-overland.jpg

the english track white observation car


a tracked ford model t!

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/cargo-personnel/uscpc-FordModelT-ChaseTrack-1.jpg

christie caterpillar gun carriers:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/selfpropelledguns/usspg-ChristieCaterpillerMount-a.jpg

and another with 75mm gun:

and with a 105 howitzer:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/selfpropelledguns/usspg-Christie-105.jpg

a 1917 holt spg:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/selfpropelledguns/usspg-Holt-55Ia.jpg

another christie SPG:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/selfpropelledguns/usspg-Christie47-a.jpg

and a 155 christie SPG:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/selfpropelledguns/usspg-Christie-155b.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/selfpropelledguns/usspg-Christie-155.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/selfpropelledguns/usspg-Christie-155c.jpg


and unknown WWI era us SPG:


a bizzare christie 1918 spg:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/selfpropelledguns/usspg-Christie-8inch-a.jpg
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/selfpropelledguns/usspg-Christie-8inch-b.jpg

enjoy!



-- Edited by theburk at 21:29, 2006-11-15

-- Edited by theburk at 21:30, 2006-11-15

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theburk,

Thank you very much for posting these; some of them I am seeing for the first time, the more I see Christie's work the more respect I have for him, look at the these prototypes they may be smaller and weaker but dont they look so simular to the greats of wwII? The Germans and the Russians took alot of ideas that the man had and made some great tanks.

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eugene wrote:


theburk,

Thank you very much for posting these; some of them I am seeing for the first time, the more I see Christie's work the more respect I have for him, look at the these prototypes they may be smaller and weaker but dont they look so simular to the greats of wwII? The Germans and the Russians took alot of ideas that the man had and made some great tanks.




i wouldnt say the germans, infact i dont think the germans ever saw any of his tanks and seemed more inclined to follow the more traditional tank designs of the era, (lots of wheels and bogies and spring leaf suspensions, eventualy torsion bar suspensions but never the free christie leg system) the russians on the other hand produced the BT-2 within around 6 months of buying 2 M1931's! they loved the thing! it was their addition of all round sloped armor and a good gun that made the T-34 such a good tank, and made the russians years ahead of anyone else, and they still are. i contend that this is because the russians at the time were willing to take chances to develop world beaters, which is why their armament industry became so advanced, they still make the best aircraft guns around.


now another interesting thing is how few pedrail tanks there are, i know of only one, i cant remember the name but there is only one left in existance, it was a mine proof tank, and had 2 pedrails in a big wheel layout, a couple were fielded during the kursk offensive, one was destroyed the other captured, it now resides at kubinka. im sure someone here knows of the tank im speaking of. now, i did see some tractors outfitted with pedrail, it was one of these that inspired HG wells to write "the land ironclad" (which reminds me, there should be a page dedicated to those early thinkers who predicted the tank) but i suppose because of the complexity involved, and the distrobution of weight they would sink pretty fast in mud if heavily armored.



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Most of us here are very familiar with the TANKS! site TheBurk, but thank you for taking the time to post that message. It provides a concise easy visual-encyclopedia of Chisties work.

If one calls the Russian T-34 and the German Panther the greatest tanks of WWII, primarily because of their advanced armor sloping, then one actually can back-track and call the Christie M1919 the grandfather of modern-style tanks.

The Russians had been giving armor sloping to many tanks ever since they started producing the BT tanks based on Christies M1931, which had prominent armor sloping on the front of the hull. And, of course, Christie had started armor-sloping with the M1919. The Russians derived their T-34 from endless work on improving the BT tank. The Germans built their Panther based on the principles of the T-34.

So, in fact, more than any other tank, the M1919 really can have the distinction of being the ancestor to the T-34 and Panther, and in turn, advanced modern armor.

By selling the Russians the plans and manufacturing rights to his tanks, Christie may have had a huge part in contributing to Russias victory over Germany in WWII. That is, if you accept that the T-34 had a massive part to play in defeating the German Army.

---Vil.

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Vilkata wrote:


Most of us here are very familiar with the TANKS! site TheBurk, but thank you for taking the time to post that message. It provides a concise easy visual-encyclopedia of Chisties work. If one calls the Russian T-34 and the German Panther the greatest tanks of WWII, primarily because of their advanced armor sloping, then one actually can back-track and call the Christie M1919 the grandfather of modern-style tanks. The Russians had been giving armor sloping to many tanks ever since they started producing the BT tanks based on Christies M1931, which had prominent armor sloping on the front of the hull. And, of course, Christie had started armor-sloping with the M1919. The Russians derived their T-34 from endless work on improving the BT tank. The Germans built their Panther based on the principles of the T-34. So, in fact, more than any other tank, the M1919 really can have the distinction of being the ancestor to the T-34 and Panther, and in turn, advanced modern armor. By selling the Russians the plans and manufacturing rights to his tanks, Christie may have had a huge part in contributing to Russias victory over Germany in WWII. That is, if you accept that the T-34 had a massive part to play in defeating the German Army. ---Vil.


very true, but i dont think that in the m1919 that it was as much intentional as coincidental that the armor was sloped, just like how it was sloped in the schneider. either way, being the predicessor of the m1931, it can therefore be seen as the start in a long line of tank development leading to modern tanks. and of course it is impossible to refute the role the t-34 played in WWII, it scared the crap out of the germans, because their shells would just glance off it, and it was more then a match for their panzer 3's, infact originaly the panzer 4 was supposed to just be a direct copy of the t-34.

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and now the flying christie, which is now featured in the book "my tank is fight!!!" by zack parsons, available from amazon.com, or www.somethingawful.com its a book about the bizzare inventions of WWII, including railguns mounted in tracked carrages, german nuclear bombers, and trained squids to be used against shipping.






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theburk wrote:

eugene wrote:


theburk,

Thank you very much for posting these; some of them I am seeing for the first time, the more I see Christie's work the more respect I have for him, look at the these prototypes they may be smaller and weaker but dont they look so simular to the greats of wwII? The Germans and the Russians took alot of ideas that the man had and made some great tanks.




i wouldnt say the germans, infact i dont think the germans ever saw any of his tanks and seemed more inclined to follow the more traditional tank designs of the era, (lots of wheels and bogies and spring leaf suspensions, eventualy torsion bar suspensions but never the free christie leg system) the russians on the other hand produced the BT-2 within around 6 months of buying 2 M1931's! they loved the thing! it was their addition of all round sloped armor and a good gun that made the T-34 such a good tank, and made the russians years ahead of anyone else, and they still are. i contend that this is because the russians at the time were willing to take chances to develop world beaters, which is why their armament industry became so advanced, they still make the best aircraft guns around.


now another interesting thing is how few pedrail tanks there are, i know of only one, i cant remember the name but there is only one left in existance, it was a mine proof tank, and had 2 pedrails in a big wheel layout, a couple were fielded during the kursk offensive, one was destroyed the other captured, it now resides at kubinka. im sure someone here knows of the tank im speaking of. now, i did see some tractors outfitted with pedrail, it was one of these that inspired HG wells to write "the land ironclad" (which reminds me, there should be a page dedicated to those early thinkers who predicted the tank) but i suppose because of the complexity involved, and the distrobution of weight they would sink pretty fast in mud if heavily armored.





that would be the Minenraumer, there is actually a kit of it done by RPM in 1/35





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Its unlikely that the Germans were unaware of the Christie designs given the interchange with the Soviets at Kazan. They obviously took a decision to adopt a different approach. The Germans may have been right in the long run. One needs to consider the way in which tanks like the first Centurian abandoned Christie inspired suspension in favour of something that looks more like that used on the Tiger and Panther tanks

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thank you eugene thats the one exactly, the name had escaped me. and yes the rpm kit is supposed to be quite good. they sell it on squadron. (i still havent gotten a hold of one :/)

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Centurion wrote:


Its unlikely that the Germans were unaware of the Christie designs given the interchange with the Soviets at Kazan. They obviously took a decision to adopt a different approach. The Germans may have been right in the long run. One needs to consider the way in which tanks like the first Centurian abandoned Christie inspired suspension in favour of something that looks more like that used on the Tiger and Panther tanks



true, i didnt mean to imply the germans were unaware of it, as i know they certainly were as they knew of the BT tanks from their usage in both spain and norway (or was it finland who the soviets fought the winter war with?) whats also interesting is the brits produced their own christie tanks, they bought a couple of his patents and produced their own tanks, it could however be said that the germans were more inspired by the british designs involving leaf spring and torsion bar suspensions, compare the valiant to the panzer 3 for instance, the fronts of german and british tanks are also similar in layout, its no secret hitler loved england, anyway it seems that most of the cruiser tanks had christie suspension, but the suspensions of the other tanks were similar, the first centurion had a suspension quite different from that of the tiger and panther, the centurion had 3 sets of twin sprung wheels on each side, no torsion bar, but the panther, tiger, and panzer 3 all had torsion bar suspensions, the challenger it could be said is sort of a mix between the christie suspension and the older british bogie system. unless im mistaken, because the christie tanks didnt have the torsion bars correct? they were sprung with springs right? and in any event, the wheels of the tiger and panther were all independantly sprung, not in grouped units.  



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