While digging around for some more info on the siege of Erzerum to expand on the stuff in my article on forts that Peter has just posted (shameless plug) I came across one of those one liners that excites interest but leaves one unsatisfied. In a list of Turkish artillery there is a reference to an armoured gun either mounted on a lorry or towed by one (its a translation so the English is imprecise) that was used at Erzerum. This would appear to be Turkey's first home grown armoured vehicle and I for one would like to know more. Any one have any info?
What was else was in the artillery list? Is it possible that the SPG was a captured Russian vehicle? What type of gun was it, for that matter, or did the source not specify it?
I enclose that list (formatting has been lost somewhere I'm afraid) Thats all I have on this gun.
At the beginning of 1914 there were: Number trademark fire per gun 344 7,5 30 Krupp field 900 52 7,5 30 Schneider field 900 92 7,5/14 Krupp mountain 867 18 10,5 field obus 1147 2 10.5 Krupp obus 466 2 10,5 Austrian obus 229 12 15 Heavy obus 1 5.7 armoured motorized ( This one is the first motorized gun and served at Erzurum.) total : 523 c] Austrian guns delivered during the WW1 7,5cm M. 15 Gebirgskanone Skoda (144 guns) 7cm M. 99 Gebirgskanone Skoda (20 guns) 10.5cm M. 16 Gebirgshaubitze Skoda (40 howitzers) 15cm Feldhaubitze M. 14 Skoda (12 howitzers)
d] old guns 12cm Haubitze L/11.6 Krupp M. 1892 (72 howitzers) 7.5cm Feldkanone L/27 Krupp M 1873 87mm Feldkanone L/24 Krupp M 1873 7.5cm Gebirgskanone M 1873 7cm Gebirgsgeschütz M 1890
e] captured guns many Russian and British guns and some French guns were captured: some of them were used by Turkish Army
there are photos of turkish guns being moved with horses so maybe if a gun was moved with a motorized vehicle it would have been a big deal just a possibility
if it is indeed a SPG were was it manufactured? I doubt Turkey on its own could have built one,
Not a book but a list on Frontline18 by a contributor from Turkey (who seems to have since dropped off the forum). Its the word armoured - again ARMOURED that suggests a non towed gun.
One possible answer. In 1909 Rheinmetall produced a semi armoured lorry carrying a anti balloon gun of I believe 57mm. This was available for export and Spain bought at least one at the same time that they bought the same Hotchkiss armoured car that Turkey acquired. One wonders if Turkey might have bought one as well.
I am not trying to argue here I am just pointing out that it could be something other than a SPG, considering the fact that the author of that list might have implied something else with the word armored
the photo that you posted is interesting that might have been what the turks bought, but once again its a possibility
and once again Ill restate that's its very cool if we find out that the Turks had a SPG
The vehicle illustrated is indeed an Ehrhardt machine of 1906 mounting a 5cm L/30 BAK. It was not armoured, and records suggest only a prototype was built for inclusion in the Artillerie Trials Board study of field artillery application to baloon defense that took place later that year.
Interestingly, the Fahrpanzer was armed with a 5,7cm gun. It was armoured, and Cruson sold them abroad by the dozens. Certainly the Ottoman Empire would have had oppertunity to acquire them. However, the motorised qualification in the listing eliminates that possibility.
This is most interesting Robert,... keep digging !
I have been reading this post with some interest, I do agree that at some point, the Turks could have captured an SPG from the English or Australians, maybe even a damaged one, that they rebuilt, this is at least plausible, since we no the English and Australians did have them in use during there campaigns against the Turks. It is also possible that they purchased a 1909 Rheinmetall as Centurion has suggested. But with out knowing the real meaning behind the armored motorized portion of this mystery, I believe we will keep second guessing ourselves until something concrete appears.
Also as JFullerton pointed out, it is possible that the Turks or even the Austrians captured a Russian armored SPG. Of course the Austrians could have given it to the Turks.
“Mysteries, Questions, with no Answers”.
All the Best
Tim R
-- Edited by Tim R at 18:42, 2006-11-22
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"The life given us by nature is short; but the memory of a well-spent life is eternal" -Cicero 106-43BC
The vehicle illustrated is indeed an Ehrhardt machine of 1906mounting a 5cm L/30 BAK. It was not armoured, and records suggest only a prototype was built for inclusion in the Artillerie Trials Board study of field artillery application to baloon defense that took place later that year.
Interestingly, the Fahrpanzer was armed with a 5,7cm gun. It was armoured, and Cruson sold them abroad by the dozens. Certainly the Ottoman Empire would have had oppertunity to acquire them. However, the motorised qualification in the listing eliminates that possibility.
This is most interesting Robert,... keep digging !
Ah no its the 1909 Rheinmetall BAK which was based on the 1906 Ehrhardt and was certainly more than a prototype as it was sold to Spain (in what numbers not known) - there is a photo of one in Spanish service on the Tanks site. What little I've found on this suggests that it was partially armoured. My point was that if Spain bought the Rheinmetall and the Hotchkiss armoured cars in the same year it suggests that they saw these as complentary (possibly the Rheinmetal was intended to provide supporting fire for the Hotchkiss) then possibly the Turks who take a similar view and acquire the Rheinmetall also.
Taking Tim's points if this machine was in service in 1914 then it seems to be very unlikely to be a captured machine. In any case the only lorry mounted artillery in the Middle East in the before 1916* seems to have been a single lorry mounting a heavy but ancient Krupp cannon used in the Western desert by the British (and uncaptured) so it could not have come from this source.
*The siege of Erzerum where the vehicle is said to have been used was in Feb 1916.
