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Post Info TOPIC: Artillery tractor


Brigadier

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Artillery tractor
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Hi

Indeed it is a very long time since I could show here my modelling attempts. It was an A/V tank in 1/25 scale. As the photos have disappeared here one example from what I finished 13 years ago

 

In the meantime my modelling interests have changed to more regional subjects but some interesting documents I discovered recently fuelled the fire again. What I would like to try is designing an entire vehicle with my CAD program. Time will show if it works!

 

May be someone recognises the vehicle type….

[Gearbox]

 

 

 

[Drive wheel]

 



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Hero

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Good to hear from you Peter.. I think it is a Bussing KZW 1800 Heavy Artillery tractor?



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Brigadier

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Hi Tim

Glad to hear from you too! And you are right. It will be a Büssing (Munitions Kraftschlepper). I had this vehicle long time on my radar. But recend finds, an "Ersatzteilkatalog" with detailed plands make this project possible at the first place.

 

2v2aV9JvFxAGC7F.png



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Hero

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That is awesome, Are you going to 3d print it?. I scratch build one many many years ago, it was rough but it was enjoyable to build. I am looking forward to seeing more of your project. All the best Tim



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Brigadier

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Tim R wrote:

Are you going to 3d print it?


 

This is the idea at least. After creating some replacement parts for other kits for me and my brother I uploaded them to my Shapeways shop called « Blue Collar Worker ». To my surprise they even found a buyer! So I wanted to go a step further and create a whole vehicle kit. This is a huge challenge for me, but since I am retired now I hope to find more time for my hobby😉

For myself I will build the Büssing in my favourite 1/25 scale but with regard to potential buyers all parts are done in 1/35 scale first. If the parts are printable in this scale, it’s easy to rescale them afterwards.

All the best,

Peter



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Hero

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Very interesting, I will check you out, I would love to have one in 1/35..Have you seen the Benz Gaggenau ASK artillery tractor, it looks alot like the Bussing...



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Brigadier

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You are right! There are some similarities on the other hand there are tractors that look completely different. Here some examoples:

Benz

 Benz.jpg

 

Büssing

 Büssing.jpg

 

Dürkopp

Duerkopp.jpg

 

Horch

Horch.jpg

 

Kaelble

Kaelble.jpg

 

Krupp-Daimler

Krupp-Daimler.jpg

 

Lanz

Lanz.jpg

 

Podeus

Podeus.JPG

 

Poehl

Poehl.jpg

 

And to be honest: The Kaelble or the Dürkopp monsters would be clearly my favourites, but the available source material is sparsely…



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Hero

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Awesome thanks for sharing the photo';s I have never seen the 1st one Benz nor the last one Poehl.. And yes I agree I would love to find more information on the Poehl and Kaelble 

All the best

Tim



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Hero

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By the way I am working on a 3D printed 1/35 LANZ, i will share photo's when finished.



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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

I see we are of the same mind.. smile

Mine is still work in progress, as I got stuck on the underside of this vehicle. Might I ask: Where did you get that scale drawing from?

Love the paint job on your A7V. Keep up the good work!

With kind regards,

-Arie.



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Brigadier

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Arie Dijkhuis wrote:

Hi Peter,

Where did you get that scale drawing from?

-Arie.


 

Hi Arie

 

Looks very fine your Büssing - congrats!

A spare part list had been offered on Ebay some time ago. With 329 € its price was far too expensive. And I had found out, that the seller had paid 60 € for it before reselling them!

So I copied the warped pics to my harddisk and tried to correct the perspective distortion. Due to this they were not suitable for extracting the relevant dimension needed to do exact drawings, but the detailed section plans are very helpful to recreate the details…

Google : Büssing Motor Schlepper, and you will find them!

Cheers, Peter

 



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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

Thanks for the info! I found the scale drawings and they do show the part I was struggling with. I don't know if you have found the original auction, but this one contains a small scan that also shows the top view. See attached...

With kind regards,

-Arie.

 



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Brigadier

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...and if you have drawn this vehicle, with a few minor changes, you can turn it into a KZW 1800... smile



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Brigadier

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Hi Arie

I have found the small scan at the auction house too! To me the dimensions looks much like those of the Munitions Schlepper.  Thanks a lot - that came exactly to the right time to make some improvements. It is a pity, that it is just so small!!!

I appears, as the chain gear, the so called "Kettenbrücke", is quite different as in "my" drawing. But I can't make out how it looks exactly... Grrr! Whereas the gearbox housing is obviously the same.

So I have to use it for the main dimensions and for that it isn't as bad...

 

Conclusion: Sometimes I have the impression, that our hobby is some sort of industrial archeology. There are a few artifacts and we have to put all the peices fit togheter to make a whole.

 



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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

The quality isn't great, but better than nothing.. smile

I have to warn though, closer inspection will reveal that this is a different vehicle. I believe this is a drawing of an earlier version of the KZW 1800..

With kind regards,

-Arie.

 



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Brigadier

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Hi Arje

The plan I posted shows a Büssing Motor Schlepper AS 80 K. I have little or no knowledge about type designations concerning Büssing vehicles

(and I am not sure whether someone has), but to my intention, this could be the following vehicle (huge radiator/six cylinder engine).

 

The Artillerie Munitionskraftwagen I would like to build has a C3 four cylinder engine (two per block) and ist radiator is much smaller. The vehicle seems to be a little bit shorter too. That’s why I thought it could be the one on « your » plan.

 

Hmm, any experts out there?

 



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Brigadier

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One more remark: The small dawing, Arie posted, was sold under the label "Ersatzteilliste für "Büssing Motor-Lastwagen Kettenwagen, Type M. T. W.55"

At annother auction house I found a similar booklet, called „Ersatz-Teile für Büssing-Motor-Lastwagen Kettenwagen, Type V.“ (unfortunately already sold).

Some thoughts:

I ask myself whether the term "Type M.T. W. 55" could mean "Munitions-Transport-Wagen". But what about Type V.?

Cheers, Peter



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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

I am not sure. In 'Die Rad- und Vollkettenzugmaschinen des Deutschen Heeres 1871-1945 it is mentioned that Büssing first produced a 55 hp artillery tractor, which was a failure. It also mentions that the Artillerie Munitionskraftwagen also had a 55 hp engine and also was a failure. Büssing produced a heavier artillery tractor, probably both in 80 and 100 hp, like Dürkopp. I believe that enclosed picture is of the earliest 55 hp artillery tractor by Büssing. The winch is exactly the same as in the drawings I provided.

The Typencompass, Militärfahrzeuge des Deutschen Heeres though mentions that the Artillerie Munitionskraftwagen had a 100 hp engine, so take your pick. I tend to believe 'Rad- und Vollkettenzugmaschine...' which means that you are right and that the drawings that I provided are of the Artillerie Munitionskraftwagen and the drawings you provided are of the heavier 80 hp version of the KZW 1800. It is also true that the 80 hp KZW 1800 is slightly bigger than the Artillerie Munitionskraftwagen.

I have no idea what the Kettenwagen Type V would be...

With kind regards,

-Arie.



-- Edited by Arie Dijkhuis on Monday 14th of February 2022 08:14:01 PM

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Brigadier

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By the by, this seems to be the exact same vehicle that you have posted a different picture of, judging by the number on the cab... smile



-- Edited by Arie Dijkhuis on Monday 14th of February 2022 07:53:35 PM

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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

I had a quick search for the Kettenwagen Type V and found the original auction. The tiny scan (well, thumbnail really) shows an ordinary Büssing truck. Tankograd World War One No 1010, Lastkraftwagen, German Military Trucks Vol 1 mentions several types of Büssing trucks, including the Type V. The Type III is a 3,5 ton vehicle, the IV a 4 ton vehicle, so this would imply that the V is a 5 ton vehicle.. smile

With kind regards,

-Arie.



-- Edited by Arie Dijkhuis on Monday 14th of February 2022 08:15:51 PM

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Brigadier

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Thanks Arie!

 

Some of those machines ended after the war as booty in Aldershot in the United Kingdom and in the United States at Aberdeen (MD). Here the links:

Aberdeen:

German Tractors being scrapped at the proving grounds in 1943. 

https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675042333_scrap_Aberdeen-Proving-Grounds_canon-balls_old-equipment_42-cm-Howitzer

[00:46] From left to right I can make out a Büssing, Kaelble, Lanz and Horch

[01:12] Kaelble and Lanz

 

Aldershot:

Some very interesting (also detail) shots of various tractors

https://www.stilltimecollection.co.uk/search/german%20Aldershot



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Brigadier

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Here some "in pogress shots". I am taking just small steps forward - small adjustements are very time consuming...

Constructive comments and suggestions are wellcome!

And yes, the so called "Kettenbrücke" must be replaced yet; the Munitionsschlepper had another one! That's sad, because I loved this one very much!

 



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Annother small update! The bonnet still needs some adjustments! And the engine has become almost a project for ist own.



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Ned


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looks great! 



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Hi Peter,

That looks great! The engine is indeed a project in it's own right. That's probably why I never attempted it... smile

With kind regards,

-Arie.



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Brigadier

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Thanks Arie and Ned

In the meantime the engine is beeing printed and I am eagerly awaiting the outcome!

As is often the case, I found a small mistake just afterwards: the bypass on the muffler (Is that the right word?) belongs to annother version. Some of my reference pics can’t be linked clearly to a specific vehicle… Therefore thanks for your detail shots either way, Arie!

Meanwhile I am confronted with annother problem: It is the limited performance of my computer in doing such CAD drawings. But it might be understandable when we take a look at this screenshot😉

[

Ok, that's it... "WEITERMACHEN!!!"



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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

The engine looks great! I look forward to seeing pictures of the printed version! I must admit that it looks very cool to have a model of this vehicle with the bonnet open.

Every now and then I have the same problem that the CAD-drawing is getting too big for my computer. What you can do, is make a copy of this file, then delete the engine (not the bonnet!), the wheels, axles and then draw the upper part of the vehicle so it will fit the bonnet and the chassis. I very often make a new file for every component that I draw. In this way I can keep the files small, so my computer doesn't protest too much... smile

With kind regards,

-Arie.

 

Viel Glück!



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Brigadier

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Arie Dijkhuis wrote:
I very often make a new file for every component that I draw. In this way I can keep the files small, so my computer doesn't protest too much... smile

 

Thanks Arie

That’s exactly what I am doing. The engine for in instance is devided in several parts (engine block, carburettor, exhaust, cooling circuit). Each part leads to several files, as I want to save all important steps in case of a computer crash or annother mishap. In this way I don’t have to go back to square one.

There is only one file that collects all parts for adjustment. This file I have to save and open in the 2D mode, otherwise I call it a day immediately!

Cheers, Peter



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Hi Peter,

I see you work the same way I do. I tend to save regularly and make a new file for most saves that I do. My 3D software tends to mess up my models every now and then, especially when the drawing is getting very complex. Then I am left with holes, double or even more surfaces, or inner and outher surfaces the wrong way round. If that happens, even the undo-function doesn't work properly. Then it is very nice to go back to the previous savefile.

I am glad that the picture I posted last time enabled you to improve your drawing, but I should have posted earlier really. I did manage to find attached picture, but I think that this is the last picture I have of this vehicle that hasn't been posted before. There is not much left of both of the vehicles in the picture though...

With kind regards,

-Arie.



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Brigadier

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It might be, not everybody is interested in our discussion, but I can't write any PM's, for whatever reasons. So could you send me a PM with your email address? And thanks a lot for your photo! And of course there is a small item missing between the two exhaust outlets I have to draw yet!

With great interest I read about your problems with your 3D program. You wrote: «My 3D software tends to mess up my models every now and then, especially when the drawing is getting very complex. Then I am left with holes, double or even more surfaces, or inner and outher surfaces the wrong way round. If that happens, even the undo-function doesn't work properly.»

Hmm, do you use CorelCad? I had some serious CAD problems and I wrote it in «my» other forum. You can see it here:

https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=3182.0

 

After moths of errantry I got the solution. I have to save all files in an older version (CorelCad 10.0).

 

Peter

 

P.S. It will take some time until I can present you the printed engine. DHL has lost my package and I have to reorder it again… Argh!!!

 



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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

I did send you a PM.

I myself use an ancient version of Sketchup.

I am sorry to hear that DHL has lost your parcel, but I fear that my experiences with DHL aren't too good either. I have had then dropping my parcels in my neighbours garden...

With kind regards,

-Arie.



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Brigadier

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Professional customer service from Shapeways : They sent me a replacement item within few days! Thanks! And that engine looks promising. Although I printed it  in 1/25 scale, the valve levers are very, very fragile!!!



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Brigadier

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It may well be that I am posting these updates only for myself (and Arie of course 😉), on the other hand there is no harm in that!?!

I have to order my parts bit by bit avoiding the risk of taking my account into the red! For this wheel (scaled to 1/25) for instance I paid € 44.97!

Seriously, if there will be any interest in a Büssing Munitionskraftwagen in 1/35 in the near future, this will become a rather expensive task. And I have no clue how to reduce the costs.



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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

It might indeed seem that way... smile

The back wheel and the engine look great! Have you ever considered investing in a resin printer yourself? At these prices you have the machine for free after just one model...

With kind regards,

-Arie.



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Brigadier

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And it is gradually taking shape…



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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

That is beginning to look pretty cool!

With kind regards,

-Arie.



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Brigadier

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Thanks a lot Arie! Uff, this will become a huge piece...



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Brigadier

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Hi Peter,

That shouldn't have come as a surprise, as the back wheels are about as big as a man... biggrin

With kind regards,

-Arie.



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Brigadier

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Hi Arie

I am trying to restored this forum from its virtually dormant state a bit ;-D

In the meantime I made some real progress. Most important  CAD drawings are done now, although some minor details are missing yet.

Winch:

Towbar:

 

 

As you may have noticed in this screenshot, the whole frame is missing. He droped out when I exported all the parts into an STL file. I think it was just too much for my computer ….

 



-- Edited by Peter T on Monday 29th of August 2022 04:53:31 PM

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Brigadier

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Wow Peter, this looks great! I hope you will be able to solve the problem with the disappearing frame! I like the towbar as well! I never realised it looked like that.

With kind regards,

-Arie.



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