Landships II

Centurion · Legend

William Pitt Shattuck II's Mobile Fort

Neal Gunderson · Corporal

I will be downtown Minneapolis Wednesday night and will see what I can find on micro-film. What is your source for the information?

Centurion · Legend

A reprint of an article in the Minneapolis Tribune that originally appeared in March 1918. At that time Shattuck lived at 2125 Girard Avenue South, Minneapolis. There is a cross reference to the same article in a more recent biography of Mackenzie King the one time Canadian Prime Minister to whom Shattuck was related in some manner.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi, I think this claim probarbly belongs to Leonardo! by the way the guns in his tank were probarbly breechloaders.......

"William Pitt Shattuck II was a citizen of Minneapolis and a general purpose inventor (a sort of American Wallace without a Grommit). In 1918 he claimed to have invented the 'tank' as early as 1888."

Still would be interesting to see a pic......steam powered machines were all the rage in the late 1800's some even tryed flying machines powered by steam engines!.......that's aeroplanes rather then airships possibly with some limited success......

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 22:29, 2007-03-27

Centurion · Legend

I think the thing that Leonardo didn't have was tracks which Shattuck claimed to have invented for his vehicle. Leanardo might make a claim for an armoured car.

The most effective steam aero engine was developed mid 19th century by Stringfellow. It had a flash steam system using kerosene as the fuel. This did away with the need for a big boiler and was very light and Stingfellow did get an unmanned aircrafyt to fly with this. Maxim tried a similar motor in his aircraft and almost got airborne (the design of the aircraft was his real problem). Most steam cars in the 1900 - 1920s used this type of engine and the world land speed record was once held by a car powered by this type of engine. It could have been used for tanks. However I supect that Shattucks wood burning engine would have been a mite heavier.

Roger Todd · Legend

Thanks for the post about Shattuck, Centurion, this is a fascinating tale.

I would argue that Maxim's was the most effective aero-engine of the 19th century, as his man-carrying flying test rig did achieve take-off (though not controlled flight) under its own power, thus surpassing the achievement (great as it was) of Stringfellow's brilliantly conceived model. And, of course, a steam-powered tank was built, by the Americans.

As to whether the Victorians could have developed a steam tank, why not? Steam traction engines were surely powerful enough, and the caterpillar track concept was invented many times. There's even a connection with the earliest aviation pioneers - Sir George Cayley designed a tracked railway-style freight truck in the mid-nineteenth century.

An example of the multitude of such concepts is this, from Scientific American (scanned from a Dover book of old transport):

It looks suspiciously like this 1884 patent:

With no roadwheels, I suspect that the tracks would have been very vulnerable to breakage, but the basic idea is there.

And who could ignore the magnificent Batter design of 1888:

Be that as it may, if anyone digs up any more information about Shattuck's machine, I for one would love to see it.

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 00:31, 2007-03-28

Neal Gunderson · Corporal

Your sources are correct, found the article easily, after discovering�that the�grand new main library is only open two nights a week due to budget issues,�in the Sunday, March 23, 1890 edition of the Minneapolis Tribune.� It has two patent type figures, a side and a cutaway view.� Though it is not one of the inventor's 8 issued patents.� Once I reunite my computer and scanner this week end�I will post it.

It is not a precursor to the tank, but you can make a case that it is to the Amtrac.� Like the LTV-1 it is designed to cross swamps, waterways and solid ground.� It is has a single full width all-around track.� Grousers are to be attached for water travel.� The track is curve both fore and aft as well as athwartships (sideways) to allow for easier steering.� This would be critical since the only steering is by two turnable steel discs, fore and aft acting, as land and water rudders.

The armor and armament are to be added as needed, also like the LVT-1.� Its stated assumptions about the need for these in Africa, to find Stanley, are not very politically correct.

Centurion · Legend

You're a star sir! I look forward to seeing the scan.

Leopold and Stanley's activities re the Congo were pretty reprehensible to put it mildly and today might well have been refered to as genocide. Given Shattuck's�non PC attitude I guess he was probably consistant with his times given that slavery had only been abolished in the US about 20 years previously and was only just being ended in some parts of the remaining Spanish empire! Shattuck himself was born when it was still in existance in the US, his father had been killed by people in those days still reffered to as Red Indians. The Sioux Apache etc were still being repressed. We may live in rough and nasty times today - they were even rougher and nastier in the 1880s.

Craig York · Sergeant

I'm looking forward to seeing this myself-does the article give dimensions for the
vehicle?

Roger- What on earth is that spike-covered bread-box in the background of the
Batter tractor picture above!?!

-- Edited by Craig York at 19:17, 2007-03-30

Roger Todd · Legend

That is an amazing find, Neal! Thanks for looking for it, I think a lot of people here would love to see it!

Craig, the sliked bread box is a model of one of Kaiser Bill's flights of fancy! He was very keen on doodling and sketching 'ideal' cruisers, battleships and, in this case, armoured landships.

Ironsides · Legend

"Craig, the sliked bread box is a model of one of Kaiser Bill's flights of fancy! He was very keen on doodling and sketching 'ideal' cruisers, battleships and, in this case, armoured landships."

Hi, for a moment�I actually got quite excited thinking it may be the armoured body for the Batter tractor.....

Cheers

Neal Gunderson · Corporal

Here are the two figures of William P Shattuck's 1890 Amtrac proposal for rescuing Stanley.� The micro-film readers were universally problematic at the library, so�it will take till next week to type up or fix the text for the article.

img src=https://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/NSGunderson1/WPShattuckAmtrak002.jpg

img src=https://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/NSGunderson1/WPShattuckAmtrak001.jpg

In the cross section, A indentifies the top and bottom run of the track.� Its sideways curved crossection is obvious.� B identifies the rollers and you can see the drive gear in the middle of the bottom run of the track from the steam engine.

Roger Todd · Legend

Fascinating stuff, neal, thanks for going to the trouble to track it down and post it here, I look forward to anything else you have on this! I'm very anxious to see what Mr Shattuck wrote in relation to his proposal to rescue Stanley... Certainly, if this is Mr Shattuck's porposal for the Congo, then it doesn't qualify as a tank. But it's definitely a fascinating machine.

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

Certainly, if this is Mr Shattuck's porposal for the Congo, then it doesn't qualify as a tank.

But definitely a landship! If Shattuck proposed mounting guns and any form of armour it would also be an AFV. The profile is certainly more in line with what Wilson and Tritton came up with than say the Schnieder or the A7V.

Neal Gunderson him diamond! Many thanks indeed for this.

Tim R · Hero

Hey guys, very interesting stuff.� Here is a little more information on Mr. Shattuck's Mobile Fort.

� http://hennbios.tripod.com/mobilefort.htm

All the Best
Tim R

Centurion · Legend

Full circle - that was the article I was trying to summarise in my first posting. Just as background William Pitt Shattuck the first was a fur trapper operating on the US/Canadian border. With a name like William Pitt I would imagine that the family were originally loyalists who'd moved north during one of the 'misunderstandings' between Britain and North America. There was a connection with the Mackenzie family who went on to be major players in the Canadian political scene and it was one of the Mackenzies who tracked down and brought to trial two local chiefs for William Pitt I's murder (they had apparently been confronted robbing his trap lines). All good staple fare for a movie starring John Wayne, Gary Cooper or the like. It would seem that William Pitt II was brought up and educated by his� Mackenzie kinfolk but forsook woodcraft for inventing.

Neal Gunderson · Corporal