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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Tanks -> More Gaza tank photos and a puzzle
Post Info TOPIC: More Gaza tank photos and a puzzle
Mark Hansen


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More Gaza tank photos and a puzzle
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The AWM have uploaded some more photos (photo nos. are P03613.004, P03613.005, P03613.006, P03613.007, P03613.008, and P03613.009) including some of the Mk I and IV tanks at Gaza undergoing maintenance. There is a photo (No. P03613.006) which appears to show "Pincher" or "Otazel" or "Ole-Luk-Oie" from the rear with the hydraulic jack shield in place. This photo also poses the puzzle. According to the caption, the tank to the left of "Pincher" (or whatever) is "Revenge". It is a Mk IV female but none of the Mk IV's, or the Mk I's for that matter, were named "Revenge". I would tend to dismiss this as an erroneous caption, as the caption also identifies the tank to the right of "Pincher" (or whatever) as a male when it is definitely a female and the fuel tank on the ground as being from "Revenge" when this can be seen in place. However, another of the photos (No. P03613.004) shows a Mk IV tank with a name starting with RE.
Incidentally, the tank under the tarp with the gantry in place is our camera-shy friend "Sir Reginald" with fuel tank removed (photo no. P03613.008). He really didn't like having his photo taken!

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Phil R


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HMLS Revenge is also mentioned on this site

http://www.chakoten.dk/eng_kvg_gaza.html

does this mean that the mistake has been copied over? or does it mean there may have been another tank at gaza?

and i also think that "Pincher" is confused with "Snapper"

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Mark Hansen


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Can't be sure unless I can either get a copy of the photo or get a look at the original or someone else does. There is a name on the fuel tank shield on the mystery tank but the photo is too low-res to make out.
Unfortunately my Danish is non-existent so I can't make out what is written about Revenge.

P.S.: If anyone can translate (even roughly) that page, it would help immensly.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 09:35, 2007-05-07

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Paratus23


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I have managed to use my non existant Danish, and an on line translator, to get a rough translation of the article. The note under the table says:

Source 1 mentions that the car maybe also carried the name Hmls Revenge, as well as that there maybe talk of one male.


Obviously not perfect, but enough to know that his reference was source 1 of his article:

The 5th RTR in WW1 of G. Dorman and D. Accid, in Military Modelling, September 1981.

So now, all we need is someone with a copy of the September 1981 Military modelling.

Dave

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Paratus23


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After all that mucking around with translators tonight, I've just opened my new copy of David Fletcher's Osprey book on the Mark IV. On page 19 there is a photo of a female which bears the name Revenge. The caption reads:

"Poor as it is, this photograph of Mark IV female Revenge has been selected to illustrate how tanks at Third Gaza were seriously overloaded with stores that had to be delivered to a series of posts before the tank could actually go into action."

It can only be Lady Wingate or War Baby II, given that they were the only two Mark IV females at Gaza. Obviously a renaming took place at some stage.

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Phil R


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so if we could find out where Revenge was drawn from - the other part of E company that did not deploy to Egypt, or central workshops, or elsewhere - then we may be able to get a number.

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Rhomboid


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Paratus, one of my Danish patients has confirmed your translation. According to a letter in a recent issue of Military Modelling, the publishers will provide photocopies of archived articles. There is also a war history of 5/E Bn. which covers the period July 1917 onwards, that is available from Bovington. I'm not sure if it mentions the EEF detachment.
The war diary for E Co. HBMGC, EEF does not mention any of the MkIV's by name or WD number. It does indicate that there were never more than eight tanks in service (the three MkI casualties of 2nd Gaza being replaced by three MkIV's), and there is no mention of any replacement vehicles being received after 3rd Gaza. I would agree that this suggests War Baby II was renamed Revenge at some point. I'm still looking for a primary reference for Sir Reginald's name.
The names of the seven tanks lined up at Deir-el-Belah would be, from left to right, Lady Wingate, Tiger, Pincher or Otazel, Kia-Ora, Ole-Luke-Oi, Revenge/War Baby II, and Sir Reginald. Otazel was heavily damaged (but still recovered) and thought to be unservicable after 3rd Gaza, so the third tank is most likely to be Pincher. 



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Mark Hansen


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Thanks for clearing that up. Interesting how "Revenge" has her name on the fuel tank shield. I wonder if the other Mk IV's did as well.



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Mark Hansen


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Another new photo online at the AWM (P05140.016). This time it's of War Baby possibly wearing camouflage.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 12:00, 2007-05-08

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Centurion


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Paratus23 wrote:


Obviously not perfect, but enough to know that his reference was source 1 of his article:

The 5th RTR in WW1 of G. Dorman and D. Accid, in Military Modelling, September 1981.

So now, all we need is someone with a copy of the September 1981 Military modelling.


I have pulled the Sept 1981 copy of MM from my archives and it contains no such article or anything remotely on this subject



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tom_aargau


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Being new to the forum, the question may have been answered already:

HMLS Ole-Luk-Oie seems to have all ramament removed, and the sides are open. The same can be seen on one of the other pictures, with the tanks on the railway wagons.
Was this some kind of field modification? If yes, why and what where the tanks used for?

Thanks in advance
Tom

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Mark Hansen


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tom_aargau wrote:

Being new to the forum, the question may have been answered already:

HMLS Ole-Luk-Oie seems to have all ramament removed, and the sides are open. The same can be seen on one of the other pictures, with the tanks on the railway wagons.
Was this some kind of field modification? If yes, why and what where the tanks used for?

Thanks in advance
Tom


Welcome to the forum Tom.

The Mk I, II, & III tanks needed their sponsons removing when transported by rail in order to fit within the gauge of the rail. The Mk IV and later models had retractable sponsons which did not need removing. A lot of times the early tanks were also moved about without sponsons due to the heat inside the tank. Moving these tanks without sponsons was not without its own problems as the frames tended to flex without the sponsons in place which made it difficult to refit the sponsons afterwards. This may be the reason Ole-Luk-Oie has a length of timber fitted across the gap. For an account of the difficulty in refitting sponsons, you could check the memoirs of W. H. L. Watson ("A Company of Tanks", Ch. 3, p. 38 in the original or Ch. 3, p. 19 in the retyped version).

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 23:45, 2008-04-24

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tom_aargau


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Thanks Mark. I guess this will make a nice little project some time soon.

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Mark Hansen


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tom_aargau wrote:

Thanks Mark. I guess this will make a nice little project some time soon.



A nice little project as in a model of Ole-Luk-Oie? That's a lot of interior that'll be visible through the sponson openings. If so, I'd like to see your results.



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philthydirtyanimal


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Tom,

you might be interested in this article

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/7413/mk1model.html


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