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Post Info TOPIC: Heigl and the Schneider CA3
James H


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Heigl and the Schneider CA3
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I've come across the 1973 reprint of Taschenbuch der Tanks by Fritz Heigl, but there's no sign of what might be the CA3. Has anyone got a version that has got this drawing in it? I can't understand why there should be a drawing in an authoritative work that isn't identified - I should have thought that there must be some sort of caption or notes attached to it. If it's in German I should be able to translate.

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Centurion


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I've not sen the book myself but looking at the biliograohies in some 1930's publications it looks as if there were two diferent editions of Taschenbuch der Tanks published some years apart. Some books quote both editions in their source list suggesting that they may be quite diferent in content.

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Roger Todd


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According to an article in 'Military Affairs' (Vol 51, No 1, Jan 1987), 'Robert J Icks: The Man and a Brief Appraisal of His Military Works', Heigl's 'Taschenbuch' was published in three volumes: 1 and 2 in 1935, and 3 in 1938. Could it be that the reprint does not cover all three parts? Having said that, online references also refer to a publication date of 1930 as well, so presumably it was a multi-volume work. On the whole, damned if I know...

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James H


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RE: Heigl and the Schneider CA3 - update.
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Yes, there seems to have been three or maybe four parts to the original - available for purchase at many hundreds of dollars. The 1973 edition is some element of it but is no use.

However, by way of trying to atone for destroying Tim R's life, I found this account on the Dutch Wikipedia. With a bit of German and a lot of online dictionary, I've translated it, and it seems to bear out Hedi's drawing. After noting the CA1's failings, it says:

Thus came about the plan for a Schneider CA2. The serious faults of the Schneider (CA1) design - the awkward placing of the main armament, with its inability to traverse to the left, or to the right without knocking the driver off his seat - were radically (tackled?) by the installation of a cupola* with 47mm cannon. The whole tank could thus be be made somewhat smaller and the hull was reshaped. So arose the prototype of a completely new tank with a weight of 8 tons. Fifty were ordered, but the order was cancelled almost immediately, perhaps because industry could not cope with the changeover.

March 1917 brought a new plan: the original** hull was kept, and the old gun replaced by just a closed cupola. This project was also pointed out to be too complex.

The next version removed the cupola and moved the gun from the right to the nose of the tank. On May 18th, 1917 four hundred of this Schneider CA3 were ordered. The need for a bigger engine of 100hp handicapped this programme considerably. The prototype was tested at SOMUA  on October 24th. Three days later this order was also cancelled.

The plans for a bigger tank (CA4) of 20 tons with a 75mm in a cupola were then permanently shelved.

* Koepel is given as cupola or dome. It might also mean turret.
**By this, I think they mean the original hull of the new prototype.

There are no pics except normal CA1 shots, but it all makes Hedi's drawing very likely. The detail in this account is like nothing I've seen up to now. Someone Dutch has got hold of this info from somewhere. I'd love to know where it came from.We should try to recruit the author.

Interestingly, the Dutch for "shelved" is gaan op de plank.

Hope this helps.

P.S. In case anyone Dutch wants to check my translation: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_(tank)



-- Edited by James H at 20:01, 2007-05-25

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Centurion


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RE: Heigl and the Schneider CA3
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James H wrote:

Interestingly, the Dutch for "shelved" is gaan op de plank.



-- Edited by James H at 20:01, 2007-05-25
Sounds a bit like the phrase I was told means delicious -  "lipp schmakken" (my spelling may be awry I only heard the words.



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Roger Todd


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James H wrote:

Interestingly, the Dutch for "shelved" is gaan op de plank.


 Are you sure it's Dutch? Sounds Geordie to me - "Why aye, man, A'm gannin' oop the plank! Put the little fishie on the little dishie, when the boot comes in..." (enter James Bolam stage left)



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James H


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I'm sorry, Roger. I didn't realise you are really Les Dennis.

Cent - I think that one might be from the Benny Hill English-Dutch Dictionary, although it's not far off; schmecklich in German, smakelijk in Dutch.

-- Edited by James H at 10:18, 2007-05-26

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Thomas Trauner


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Huh ?

What is "shelved" ? Does is it really mean: "Gone by the plank/board" like the Dutch "gaan oop de plank.." ?
What, my dear English speaking friends, is the real difference between a "shelve", a "plank" and a "board" ??
I unterstand, that "boarded" is more misleading like "shelved" if you really mean that someone is feated to the sharks, esp. if you leave the board of a ship in this case...

If you put a book back on a shelve is it "shelved", too ? Or "boarded" ? Or is it "shelved" if it falls down ???
Does "planked" exist ??

So - if someone is "shelved" is he "smakeljik" or "schmecklich" to the sharks ?
Is the man on the plank a "boarder" ? Are the sharks "boarding out" ?
If a member of a board is fired, is he/she "gone by the board" ??

Ok, better back to "tanks"...

Thomas





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Centurion


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Perhaps this subject should be "kicked into the long grass"smile

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James H


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Humor muß sein, Thomas. Ärgern Sie sich nicht.

MfG.

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Thomas Trauner


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Oh, god - this went totally wrong....
I´m not upset- vice versa, I am amused.....it´s only about how tricky English can be.
I really don´t know what "shelved" means confused What does it mean really ?

Sorry for that.

Thomas


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Mark Hansen


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Thomas Trauner wrote:

...I really don´t know what "shelved" means confused What does it mean really ?...

"Shelved" means almost exactly what it says. Putting something, a project for example, back on the (metaphorical) shelf. It's quite often used to mean something which hasn't been stopped completely but which isn't expected to have much more work done on it for quite a while.



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Centurion


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Mark Hansen wrote:

Thomas Trauner wrote:

...I really don´t know what "shelved" means confused What does it mean really ?...

"Shelved" means almost exactly what it says. Putting something, a project for example, back on the (metaphorical) shelf. It's quite often used to mean something which hasn't been stopped completely but which isn't expected to have much more work done on it for quite a while.

In this case shelved is usually modified as "shelved for the time being"
Other phrases meaning much the same thing

Put on the back burner
Kicked into the long grass



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James H


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Thomas Trauner wrote:

I really don´t know what "shelved" means confused What does it mean really ?

Die eigentliche Bedeutung von shelved ist auf ein Brett gelegt, aber figürlich bedeutet es auf unbestimmte Zeit beiseitsgelegt.

Was kommt man komisch vor is daß auf englisch bedeutet plank nicht Brett sondern Planke oder Bohle.



-- Edited by James H at 17:53, 2007-05-31

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Thomas Trauner


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OK, thanks. I was only puzzled, because the Dutch phrase means gone by the plank, which means certain death....and my play with words backfired. Sorry.
But, please - forumates - please, please back to tanks.

Sorry for all that.

Thomas

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James H


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As Lt. Columbo would say, just one more thing.

There's an English expression gone by the board. It now means finished, done with, but is believed to have originally meant gone over the side of a ship (as in larboard and starboard) so that's similar to the Dutch. Etymologically interesting, but the end result was the same for the CA3.

Und jetzt zu den Panzers zurück.

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phil tandy


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In the unlikely event of this query still being 'live' I have just come across a line illustration in a recent Osprey book - FRENCH TANKS OF WORLD WAR 1 by Steven.J.Zaloga (ISBN 978 1 84603 513 5). Its only a modest side view. But its more than I have seen elsewhere,a good source & might serve.



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Roger Todd


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If anyone's still looking at this thread, there's this in Paul Malmassari's Les chars de la Grande Guerre.



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Tonys


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Roger,

A fascinating drawing, but does anyone know what those dimensions on the plan are?

The writing is too small and indistinct.

Tony



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Roger Todd


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Glad you like it - unfortunately, that image is reproduced just small enough in the book (as a half-tone, to make things worse) such that even under a jeweller's loupe, the text is indistinct enough for me to have no confidence as to what it says!



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Tanker


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Bonjour,

All these plans, with dimensions, are in SHD Vincennes - Paris (Box n° 16 N 2130 and 16 N 2131)

Ca 3 (without turret) - Plans - projet S 1033 (with 75 mm Model 1897)

             Longueur : 5,350 m (without gun)

             Largeur : 2,40 m

             Hauteur : 2,45 m

         Tracks :

            longueur : 4,350 m

            largeur 0,45 m (1,50 m between tracks)

Ca 3 (witout turret) - Plans - projet S 1058 - projet S 1059

            Longueur : 5,550 m  (without gun and machinegun)

            Largeur : 2,40 m

            Hauteur : 2,45 m

            Tracks :

                longueur : 4,350 m

                largeur 0,45 m (1,50 m between tracks)

Ca 4 (with turret) - Plans projet S 1050

               Longueur : 5,350 m (without gun)

               Largeur : 2,40 m

               Hauteur : 2,90 m

          Tracks :

               longueur : 4,350 m

               largeur 0,45 m (1,50 m between tracks)

Ca 4 (with turret) - Plans projet S 1051 (an other model of turret)

CA3/4 (without plans) - projet S 2091 - No information on this projet

Bonne après-midi - Michel

 



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Roger Todd


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I knew someone would know, cheers Michel!

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Tonys


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Merci beaucoup, Michel.

I printed out the drg onto A4 and it scales as good as 1:35 straight off; perhaps on imperial paper sizes you may have to to a bit of scaling to get it spot on.

This whole exercise is another example of how little we know of the French armour development outside of the FT-17.

Tony



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James H


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Tonys wrote:
This whole exercise is another example of how little we know of the French armour development outside of the FT-17.

 



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françois vauvillier


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Bonjour à tous,

This is an interesting discussion I discover today. I did come accross a lot of typical expressions which, althought it confused me a lot at first reading, has eventually helped my English getting a bit better (this is a real need indeed).

As James H as outlined it in recalling Tonys' last phrase, so little has been published so far in English, about French armour development.

This is the reason why I most recently produced, simultaneously with the French edition, a full-English version (translated by English Author Roger Branfill-Cook, not by myself fortunately) of The Encyclopedia of French Tanks and Armoured Vehicles 1914-1940. It is readily available worldwide here :

http://livres.histoireetcollections.com/en/publication/3361/the-encyclodepia-of-french-tanks-and-armoured-vehicles-1914-1940.html

(see also some inner pages, identical in French and in English except for the texts, here, by clicking on " Feuilleter ")

http://livres.histoireetcollections.com/publication/3360/tous-les-blindes-de-l-armee-francaise-1914-1940.html


Back to the question discussed in this thread, the complex question of the development of Schneider Medium Tanks after the CA Model is explained — in its broader lines — on page 22, with the main original plans featured, all reproduced in 1/72 scale. And the CA 2, which was not a Medium Tank but a Command Tank, is shown in real photograph, for the first time ever, on page 123, plus a colour profile in /35.

The Encyclopedia includes also many other features from my friends Michel Souquet (respectfully known as 'Tanker' on the web), Colonel Paul Malmassari and Jean-Pierre Fouché (no else than the grandson of Lieutenant Charles Fouché who actually built up, in early 1916, the first French Landships under General Mourret's request) who all did an extensive research on the subject.
Several designs from Saint-Chamond, Delaunay-Belleville, Aubriot-Gabet, de Poix, etc. are unveiled in the Encyclopedia, and I have been pleased to add several photographs of real prototypes (STA-Fouché, Peugeot, Delaunay-Belleville...) never seen before.

Not to talk about the French armoured cars, for which the true story, from the earliest 1902 CGV design to the complex story of the 1918 'White' A/C, is completely explained.

Would this material be 'shelved' ? On the contrary, facts " à faire tomber les chaussettes " * are now waiting for you.

Hope you will envoy the Encyclopedia.

Cordialement à tous

François


* ' to make your socks fall down ' (I fear this does not translate that way)



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Roger Todd


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fran�ois vauvillier wrote:

Would this material be 'shelved' ? On the contrary, facts " à faire tomber les chaussettes " * are now waiting for you...

* ' to make your socks fall down ' (I fear this does not translate that way)

I think the closest you'd get in English would be "...facts that will blow your socks off" - not so far off, really!

The book sounds fantastic!



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James H


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François: en Anglais, "Vous me parlez à faire tomber les chaussettes" = "Vous m'ennuyez à mourir". Mais pas en ce cas, naturellement.



-- Edited by James H on Saturday 9th of August 2014 09:09:23 PM

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