Landships II

Mark Hansen · Legend

We were wrong

Phil R · Captain

so they must have added steering wheels very soon after its war career, because that guy is in ww1 uniform (unless he is an actor)

Mark Hansen · Legend

Certainly looks that way. David Fletcher doesn't mention when it was "converted" in The British Mark I Tank 1916".

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Brilliant spotting Mark! By coincidence, I e-mailed Bovington tonight�to enquire about this�photo, and it will be interesting to hear what they have to say about it. I would agree that the damage pattern is identical. I had assumed that the presence of the tail wheels dated the photo to 1916, but the soldier's uniform has a Tank Corps badge, which were not issued until mid-1917. The lack of any markings on the tank�had been�difficult to explain, and I now suspect that it was repainted after the tail was attached.�By the time this tank was on display at Chertsey in the 1940's,�it had received�it's current camouflage paint scheme. I'm guessing that the photo may have been taken at Bovington immediately after the war, when a small collection began to be assembled.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

Brilliant spotting Mark! By coincidence, I e-mailed Bovington tonight�to enquire about this�photo, and it will be interesting to hear what they have to say about it. I would agree that the damage pattern is identical. I had assumed that the presence of the tail wheels dated the photo to 1916, but the soldier's uniform has a Tank Corps badge, which were not issued until mid-1917. The lack of any markings on the tank�had been�difficult to explain, and I now suspect that it was repainted after the tail was attached.�By the time this tank was on display at Chertsey in the 1940's,�it had received�it's current camouflage paint scheme. I'm guessing that the photo may have been taken at Bovington immediately after the war, when a small collection began to be assembled.

I would have thought that they would have been able to find a Mk I to attach the wheels to so soon after the war but perhaps they had already been scrapped. It raises another question though: Where did they get the tailwheels?

That 785 sure has got a lot to answer for!

P.S.: The paling fence partially hidden to the right of the tank: Does that look similar to the fence in the Tank Park photo at the GWF? Also; where is the original thread on this forum that held this photo?

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 08:52, 2007-07-06

Centurion · Legend

That picture has been cropped - see original for a better view of the background. I've seen postings (either on this forum or another) identifying the location as a road in France confused

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

�� David Fletcher has responded with his usual promptness, and he confirms your identification, Mark. The museum holds another photo of the tank from a different angle. The location is the dip in the road at the north end of Bovington Camp. The paling fence surrounded the camp's original museum. The structures beside the�road are improvised sheds made from packing cases.�
�� The source of the steering tail was likely those discarded from the remaining MkI trainers at the end of 1916.�The tails�were probably still rusting away in a field at Bovington in 1919.

Centurion · Legend

This raises some interesting thoughts and questions. Unless there was an instant purge of any surviving MK Is at the end of 1919 it would seem probable that there were some Mk Is around, a number certainly appear to have been in use as sponsonless general purpose hacks (such as tractors). So why go to the effort of fitting the tail to a Mk II? Unless there was one handy and it wasn't any effort. Is it possible that the Mk IIs were built with the holes and other attachments for fitting tails (just like Mk Is) but these were never fitted?
There is a further speculation/ query about this particular tank which has been said to have been at some time a supply tank. Looking at a photo of the rear of one of the Central workshop's supply tank conversions there is a large hull extension between the rear horns that has no external door or hatch. It would have to be filled with stores from inside the tank through the original rear�door in the hull. The door itself�would have to have been removed as it would have been in the way (and one wonders if the apperture would need to have been enlarged). If this tank had been converted to supply in the same way as others then all of this would have had to be removed and the door replaced before the wheels could be fitted. In such a case fitting the wheels would have required quite a lot of work and effort after all. Of course it might not have been converted to supply in the first case.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

This raises some interesting thoughts and questions. Unless there was an instant purge of any surviving MK Is at the end of 1919 it would seem probable that there were some Mk Is around, a number certainly appear to have been in use as sponsonless general purpose hacks (such as tractors). So why go to the effort of fitting the tail to a Mk II? Unless there was one handy and it wasn't any effort. Is it possible that the Mk IIs were built with the holes and other attachments for fitting tails (just like Mk Is) but these were never fitted?
There is a further speculation/ query about this particular tank which has been said to have been at some time a supply tank. Looking at a photo of the rear of one of the Central workshop's supply tank conversions there is a large hull extension between the rear horns that has no external door or hatch. It would have to be filled with stores from inside the tank through the original rear�door in the hull. The door itself�would have to have been removed as it would have been in the way (and one wonders if the apperture would need to have been enlarged). If this tank had been converted to supply in the same way as others then all of this would have had to be removed and the door replaced before the wheels could be fitted. In such a case fitting the wheels would have required quite a lot of work and effort after all. Of course it might not have been converted to supply in the first case.

It is certainly possible that they had the attachment areas. The Mk II and III were, for all intents and purposes, boiler-plate models of the Mk I. The mild steel would have been easy enough to cut even if they didn't have the attachment points.

The covered rear door is not the only curious item about the Mk I supply tank. They have also covered the radiator vent. This would have been a little detrimental to conditions inside.�Perhaps the heat trapped by the closed in area in the Mk I's made conditions bad enough that it was not kept on the Mk II's.��It may be that�the Mk II's�simply retained�the smaller rear box.� When I contacted David Fletcher about 785 asking if it had the covered area, he couldn't say. As he pointed out, there are no known wartime photos of it. He also mentioned that it had been reworked a fair bit to look as much like a Mk I as possible which may mean that the current rear plate is not original if it did have the large covered area.
As far as the�rear door goes, it could easily be removed; whether the opening would be enlarged is debatable. This was hardened on Mk I's and not as easily cut.

The question is, why make a Mk II into a Mk I?�Two possible answers:
1. There really were�no Mk I's�available or�the ones that were around were in such a bad state that they weren't worth the effort of preserving.
2.�Everyone knows that the first tanks going into battle had tailwheels. Any self-respecting British tank museum has to have one with tailwheels. If you haven't got one and can't get one, fake it!�If it's also got real battle damage, even better!

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Here are two views of the rear hull plate: the MkII in its current configuration (courtesy of Phil Radley), and the authentic MkI prior to the restoration of its tail. The hydraulic ram was mounted onto two flanges which were bolted to the hull plate on�each side of the radiator filling and draining aperatures. The remnants of the bolt holes can still be seen on the museum's MkII. None of my photos show the rear plate of a operational MkII well enough to determine if they came from the factory with�these bolt holes pre-drilled. Given that the MkII's were ordered before the tail wheels were abandoned, I suppose�it's possible that they were, and that the holes were filled with rivets after the decision was taken�not to install�tails.�
The last MkI's were delivered in Oct. 1916, and there were said to be 15 left in running condition at Bovington in Jan. 1917. At least one MkI was still running at Dollis Hill in 1918 (equipped with a crane), but I suspect that very few, if any, others were still "runners" by 1919. It's possible that machines in running condition were wanted for the Tank Corps museum, and that it was simpler to�modify 785 then to restore a defunct MkI.�

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

The Bovington Tank Museum has posted a short article about 785 on its website. Here is the link http://www.tankmuseum.org/newspack_0907.html�.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

The Bovington Tank Museum has posted a short article about 785 on its website...

In the photos on that page, there is one showing 785 being moved while aboard a trailer. Does anyone know what type of trailer 785 is on?�The tractor looks to me to be a 980 Diamond 'T'.