Landships II

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

FRENCH Flak�75 on truck?

Paul Bonnett · Hero

two pictures I found of a/a guns early and mid war I think

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Hello Master of model-building !

That is the page i had in mind as i told in my mail.
There must be an original photo of an AA 7,5 mounted on a truck captured and
used by the German side.
I will seek it and put on here

Cheers

Gerd

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

� Good Paul nad LaffetenHieni;
thank You both a lot for your kind help. I decided to build one,
so any other info is alwaus welcome. The truck seems to be a Renault or Peugeot auto-canon chassis.
Again thank You! smile

28juni14 · Hero

Regarding the first pic of the "75" in AA service.�� As information, the photo illustrates a training session with the new BAK system introduced in late 1915.� Hundreds of M1897 field guns had been captured by then, and the decision to utilize them in the anti aircraft role resulted in some 200 captured examples undergoing conversion.�� The German ordnance personnel appreciated the recoil properties of the piece , but not the calibre.�� All guns were rebored to 7,7cm, which they considered superior in ballistic performance to the French 75mm round.� The conversion was given the designation; 7,7cm L/35(Franz.). � BAK Artillerie batteries using the gun were furnished with all beute French equipment; to include limbers & cassions.� The system�served in all theatres( to include Palestine) and remained in use thoughout the war.

Lafettenheini · Colonel

AGrrrrr.

How can i tell in the name of Eduardo ,Paul and me for last, to the help you give

with your post ! smile

There i can seek the photo in mind till judjementday when looking for wrong calibre. biggrin

7,7``er i had to look for- that was the secret !

sincerly

Gerd

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

�� Same words of gratitude from me. Attached some images for someone can add a littkle assitance to identify!

James H · Legend

I think that pics 1, 3, 4, & 5 are 75s on a De Dion chassis. Don't know how many were produced in total, but a dozen or so were brought to Britain for the air defence of London. Admiral Sir Percy Scott asked for more but the French couldn't spare any, so they sent some 75mm guns which were fitted to a new type of�mounting by the Coventry Ordnance Works. These were then�put on De Dion and Daimler chassis. Some French versions were loaned to the Americans.

28juni14 · Hero

I would agree; all pics appear to illustrate the DeDion Bouton chassis.� The second pic is�one of two�Ehrhardt 7,7c, L/27 BAK guns demonstrated for the Imperial Army.� They were later sold to the Ottomans and implaced�at Adrianople just in time to be captured by the Bulgarians when that fortress fell in the 1st Balkan War.

Incidently, the drawing in the 3rd message illustrates the M1897 on the Coventry Ordnance mount.�� The French�lorry mounted guns were trunnioned far to the rear; almost directly under the breach.

James H · Legend

According to the oracle, Ellis & Bishop, the Erhardt had a Rheinmetall 50mm gun and the Krupp 75 BAK was on a Daimler truck chassis. The gun above looks more like the latter.�Or are these different again?

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

� Thank You James fro joining us.
According to the french 75 internet site; there were the following variants;

autocanon de 75 mm mle 1913 self-propelled anti-aircraft variant, on De Dion Bouton chassis. canon de 75 mm contre-a�roplanes sur plateforme mle 1915 static anti-aircraft variant on rotating platform canon de 75 mm contre-a�roplanes mle 1917 anti-aircraft variant on 1-axle trailer with stabilizer legs.

Still I am searching for the complete-carriage-mounted-on version, but the discusion have turned into an interesting topic.
Best regards

28juni14 · Hero

There were a number of experimental ballonabwehrkanone lorries appearing from year to year before the standard models were produced.�� Firstly, the Ehrhardt armoured car featuring a limited traverse 5cm gun was shown at the 1906 Berlin Motor Show.� Over the next few years both�major competitors( Krupp & Ehrhardt)�displayed new and improved designed gun carrying platform lorries.� Eventually they both designed weapon systems in the army's standardized field artillerie calibre of 7,7cm.�� By this time Ehrhardt's armament industry( Rheinmetall ) was manufacturing the bulk of ammunition consumed by the army, so it was natural that a Rheinmetall weapon was mounted on their final model platform lorry of 1914.� This was the 7,7cm L/27 (visitors to the Imperial War Museum can see an examole displayed there.)
Krupp had established a working relationship with the firm of Daimler over the years, and their final version was the Model 1914 carrying the Krupp 7,7cm L/27 BAK.� Both vehicles were 4 wheel drive and had similar performance data.

These weapon systems proved highly successful during the war.� We are only now discovering some of their acheivements in both the air war, and anti-tank/ground support�role.

James H · Legend

This is all good stuff.

I had a feeling I'd seen something like the arrangement Eduardo mentioned, but all I've managed to find is this: a German 10.5 howitzer on a 4-ton chassis. At least it establishes the principle.

Apparently, from Cambrai onwards�52 Tanks were accounted for by Flak pieces.

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

�Indeed good stuff. I was promised a drawing from J. Batchelor� via a book from Ian.V Hogg(both legends from�theri speciality).
It illustates the rare version.As soon as i can I will share it .
best regrds

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

EDUARDO MAMORETTI wrote:

�Indeed good stuff. I was promised a drawing from J. Batchelor� via a book from Ian.V Hogg(both legends from�theri speciality).
It illustates the rare version.As soon as i can I will share it .
best regrds

Gentlemen, folow the linK http://www.alsace1418.fr/dca-96/article-0704/f-article-0704-p01.html

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Hello Eduardo,

The book from Ian van Hook you told from must be the paperback
i am seeking like mad in my magazine -boxes last weekend.
I try it again sunday. Therein are also graphics by Kenneth Musgrave i presume.

cherio

James H · Legend

Here are the french and the Portuguese at it:

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

�Ah, the device of the second photo is what� I want to build on a truck!!!!
May� it be a probable field improvisation in any armie in ww1?
The idea is delicious!!! idea

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Hello Eduardo ! smile

Field improvisation ??? idea

When you want to have look at my digged out picture,

you 'll have no more questions i presume !! biggrin

Best regards

Gerd

Lafettenheini · Colonel

There i 'm back again!

Have put all pictures i could scan about Flak on trucks on board here.
Hope it will be helpfull. Even for more discussion.
For special comments and questions i will answer with all technical-facts i have
about them.

cheers

Gerd

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

�� Ah! fascinating new material, each photo is a must!
�� I wonder if the scan number 5 is a french truck?
� All the best

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Hi Eduardo !
If you mean the upper picture in frame number 4- it's an Ehrhard-truck with a
6,5 cm L/35 BAK .
I think you and the know the sence of L / ?
I explain it here for those who are wondering.

Multiplicate calibernumber with the number beyond the sledge bar .In this case 35.

Than we got 6,5 x 35 = 227,5

As we see the barrell lenght of the gun is 227,5 cm .

Old artillerists will moan therefore

Best regards

Gerd

28juni14 · Hero

Hallo Laffenheini !

Your post from two days ago depicts the KuK work horse of the feldartillerie; an 8cm� M.5/7 being utilized in the Flak role.

Your�post on the following day illustrates firstly, the Rhenische Metailwaaren u. Maschinenfabrik 7,7cm L/27 mounted on a Model 1912 Ehrhardt�Platform lorry.
2nd Photo:� Same as above.
3rd pair of Photos:� Daimler Model 1914 Platform lorry mounting the Krupp 7,7cm M1914 BAK.
4th Series of Photos: Repeat of the vehicle in the first pic.
5th Series of Photos:�Prototype platform BAK lorry Daimler Model 1910, and their 1911 models.� (These vehicles did not go into production.)
6th Series of Photos:� All three illustrate the Damiler Motor Vehicle 19; the last two in Rechswehr service.� See my earlier post for details of this vehicle's war time developement, and subsequent use.

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Hallo 28 juni 14,

Thank' s alot for the work i was too lazy to do.
All your comments to the pictures are completly right !

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

� Gentlemen, thank You to you all for your kind contribution.
You helped me to decide to try a model.
All the best, Eduardo smile

James H · Legend

And now . . . . Belgians:

Lafettenheini · Colonel

that looks as pivot supported wheel lafettes -guns had been a sort of pattern-standard
by the way. Is it known in history of airship -defence, if this system has been effective ?

Best regards smile

Gerd

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

�Heini,
taking into consideration that there are so few images from this "defense system" and the fact that early aviation developed zeppelin-killer missions(i.e by using SOPWITHS specialy adapted to the task) that early attempt to AA artillery was not enterely succesful. Nevertheless, Krupp & Rhienmetall��took the idea and re-created �by designing the forerunner�of the WW2� famous 88�s, this time from the very first stage�as an AA-specialy designed purpose gun family.
Eduardo

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Eduardo ,
I have better think first before i wrote ! The only fact i had in mind was the effort

described in a book of WW1 history that this system took some ballons down .

Clear -the altitude of Zeppelins was even too high for those short barrelt guns .

(but close enough for my english )

Put here a photo of the early Rheinmetall 8,8 AA L/45 with Ehrhardt -Truck

you've told from .

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

�Beautiful add to the collection! This week end I will submit�a photo of �a searchlight truck (french make design), ideal companion fro a Dio!Just give me a bit of patience...
All the best, Eduardo

James H · Legend

Bringing up the rear, the Turks in Palestine.

James H · Legend

Don't think we've had this before. Looks like a 75, but only 12 spokes on the wheels. The troops look like Belgians, as in an earlier pic.

28juni14 · Hero

The weapon pictured is the 75mm Schneider Mle 1912.� Originally intended as a design improvement over the Mle 1897( though lighter, it�did not prove superior ),� the gun found a home with the cavalry.� By�November 1914 they were themselves being replaced by the Mle 1897.� Surviving guns were given to Belgium.��
Before the Great War it was purchased by both Servia and Bulgaria, and was the first line divisional piece of both countries.�� It was a good weapons system for it's day, and it's failure of noteworthy service with the French army was due more to pre-war time ecomonic decisions rather than inferior performance.��

James H · Legend

Well, that's very interesting. I'd forgotten all about that model, and your description is quite correct. However, I don't think the above is one. The pic below is a Mle 1912, it tallies with the drawing in Ian Hogg's Allied Artillery of WWI, complete with 12-spoke wheels, but it doesn't look like the same gun as in the pic above; the 1897 was 36 calibre, the 1912, 31. Unhelpfully, this site http://www.agnminiatures.com/html/france.html�advertising models in the curious scale of 1/56 shows what it claims is a 1912 but the pic is actually named Model1897, so I think that's a mix-up. However, St. Chamond had� made some longer-barrelled 1912s for export, and these were taken into service as the Mle 1914. Perhaps the above is one of those in Belgian (or Portuguese?) hands.

-- Edited by James H at 03:16, 2008-01-26

28juni14 · Hero

You are quite correct, James!�� Sleep deprivation sometimes leads to visual errors; and this was an error.��I stand�corrected !� �The weapon systems sold to Serbia initially were the 75mm System Schneider Mle 1907.� This was the field gun that was the first line mainstay�I quoted earlier.� The Belgian FLAK�pictured above�is this same weapon system with the splinter shield and gunner seats removed.� A surviving example of the Mle1907 can be viewed at the Royal Army Museum in Brussels.�

I shall attempt to post pics of the two pieces after I sleep a bit.

28juni14 · Hero

...The first pic illustrates the Mle 1907 freshly catured from the Serbs.� The second pic is the Mle1912( splinter shield and axle seats have been removed to facilitate it's role as Anti Aircraft).��

Though the Mle1907 were sold ( term "sold"�used loosely; Schneider was made whole by the French government as payment from Servia never occured) to Servia before the first Balkan War, the M1912 did not arrive until after the second Austrian offensive.��

Date: Jan 27, 2008

James H & 28 juni,
thank you for keep illustrating us this topic. Attached this linK:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/FRENCH-FOREST-SEARCHLIGHT-PARIS-TRENCH/dp/B000RRSI1E, Oom the ww1� french searchlight promised.
Apologise for the delay,
all the best

EDUARDO MAMORETTI · General

Thank You James H & 28 Juni,
this is the link to the ww1 searchlight(related item ) promised long before, apologize for the delay.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/FRENCH-FOREST-SEARCHLIGHT-PARIS-TRENCH/dp/B000RRSI1E
All the best,EDUARDO

James H · Legend

There's a little section on Serbia at the end of the chapter on Allied Field Artillery that attempts to clear it up, although the dates are a bit jumbled. As 28juni says, the Serbs acquired�what Hogg descrbes as the�Schneider Mle 1906, which was similar to guns supplied to Spain and Portugal. The Mle 1911 was, indeed, the French horse artillery gun; Hogg refers to this as the Mle 1911, then a few lines later as the 1912. He says it was in production "at a fairly low rate", and deliveries to Serbia began in 1912, exact number unknown.

kev · Private

hello

i am looking for some technical data of the autocannon 75mm schneider M 1913. does anyone have this? it would be very helpfull for my researchpaper on anti-aircraft artillery during world war I.

thanks