Landships II

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Sex change for presentation purposes only?

Mark Hansen · Legend

2005 looks very much like it has had its sponsons changed as they look a different shade from the rest of the tank. Perhaps the original sponsons were too badly damaged to display. The female sponsons�fitted to 2005 are of the later type (turrets with a smaller, square-ended vertical cut out and a Hotchkiss, rather than a Lewis,�mounting), so it is even possible that they came from a Mk V or V*.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Thanks Mark, that's very helpful. 8050 also has square-cut apertures. Anyone know if later (Mark V style) Female sponsons were fitted to late production Mark IVs when they were built?

I've just had a look at other photos and I note that the Mark IV Female presented to Rugby, Warwickshire also had the later style sponsons, so perhaps this is a Male in disguise. Unfortunately I don't have a serial number for this tank.

The other thing I've noticed about the three tanks is that they may all be ex-Western Front. 2005 and 8050 both have unditching rails, and the Rugby tank has white/red/white recognition stripes and no Home Forces number. Don't know if it's significant - it's just an observation.

Gwyn

Mark Hansen · Legend

After checking various photos of female Mk IV's, I have not been able to find any that had the later type sponsons. That doesn't mean that they weren't fitted, only that if they were fitted they must not have been fitted to very many.
I've attached a quick sketch showing the difference between sponsons for anyone that is interested.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Apart from the three presentation tanks already mentioned I can find just one Mark IV Female with later style sponsons, and it's a tank that I wouldn't expect.�

The tank in question is 2064, photo attached.� As you'll see it is a�Mark IV�converted for use during the abortive Hush operation.� There are a few facets to this:
1. The Hush tanks were all in France by mid 1917.� We know this because a document at The National Archives in Kew�states,�"All preparations for the landing were completed by the middle of 1917 and the crews thoroughly trained."� The crews could hardly be thoroughly trained without the special tanks so 2064 must have been in France then.
2. 2064 should be a Male!� 2059, 2060 and 2061 were all Males as are all other 20xx tanks I know of, except 2005 as discussed in other posts.
3. The same National Archives document states "Some female Mark IV Machines specially fitted�up with winding gear and steel wire cables were provided from England�... ."� My reading of this is that the Hush Males were not fitted with winding gear.� So 2064 was a female in mid�1917.
4. 2064 is photographed fitted with sponsons that weren't manufactured until the Mark V came along in 1918.

As the photo was clearly taken in 1918 after the recognition stripes were introduced the solution must be that for some reason 2064 had new female sponsons fitted in 1918 to replace the�first female sponsons that replaced the original male ones!

Centurion · Legend

Its possible that as damaged tanks were returned to Central Workshops for repair they might 'change sex' if the 'right' sponsons were not available or as parts from different tanks were combined to produce one useable tank (for example sponsons from a female that� had a totaled engine could be added to a runnable male with unrepairable sponson damage. Some Composites could emerge from the� same process. One test of this theory might be to find some 'females' with male sponsons.
Also as�some training tanks and 'utilities' had sponsons removed�some of these might have had whatever was available fitted before being sent out as presentations

tanks3 · Major

Hello,

I have a postcard of the presentation tank at Hastings. It too has the recognition stripes and is numbered 2563. in the photo it is a female but could it also be one of the "sex change" machines?

Thanks

Tanks3

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Centurion - what you say is perfectly feasible.� The only Mark IV Composite (and it's only�a possible) I'm aware of is the tank "Whiskey and Soda" - see page 10 of the recent Osprey.� I am aware of one possible Mark IV "Female with Male sponsons", but no photos, just documentation.��I'll keep looking!

Tanks3 - Thanks for your post.� I'm perfectly content that 2563 is the genuine article.

Gwyn

Centurion · Legend

Gwyn. It would be interesting to know if there were any sex changes with MkV males. It occurs to me that�as female Mk Vs were converted to composites this could result�in a shortage of male sponsons and a surplus of female ones - possibly leading to damaged Mk V males either being converted during repair to composite (because of no available male sponsons) or even the full snip and becoming female.
This might also go someway to explaining why some sex change presentation Mk IVs have late model female sponsons (left over from composite conversions). If damaged Mk IVs or utility Mk IVs were being patched up and re sponsoned to be sent home for use in training and/or presentation then its possible that whatever sponsons were available would be used.

Centurion · Legend

Further to my posting above
As there are a number of examples of photos of Mk V tanks with�'wrong' sponsons and we know that sponsons were swapped on Mk IVs we should perhaps be more cautious of identifying any MkV with an 'inappropriate' sex sponson as a composite unless we can see the other side.
Long time ago I posted a suggestion that sponsons could be swapped during repair at CW - I wish there was more detail available of exactly what did happen in CW

Gwyn Evans · Legend

One Mark V Female that appears to have been converted to a Male was 9438, but that's perhaps a special case because it was used for experiments at Dollis Hill.� I'm aware of two other possibles but I'm relying on others' work and I've not had the opportunity to check myself.� Consequently I'm a bit reluctant to post their numbers at this stage.� I don't want to end up with egg on face!

I have up to 32 Mark Vs on my database that started life as Females but became Composites.

I do agree that�Males were�converted to Composites.� I have found 17 Males so converted.� It's difficult to say anything about the surpluses or shortages of�different types of sponsons�because of�the likely availability of serviceable sponsons from otherwise wrecked tanks.

I too would like to know more about Central Workshops.�

Gwyn

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:
As there are a number of examples of photos of Mk V tanks with�'wrong' sponsons and we know that sponsons were swapped on Mk IVs we should perhaps be more cautious of identifying any MkV with an 'inappropriate' sex sponson as a composite unless we can see the other side.

This argument works both ways - A tank with the 'correct' sponson for its WD number may not be what it 'should be'.
As an example, I offer a Mk V* 'female' 9806. It appears in a few books labelled as a female. At first glance there is nothing to challenge this identification; it has a number�in the female range�and it has a female sponson on the side shown. However it does appear in a film sequence at the National Film Board of Canada�in company with another Mk V* and a Mk V. All these tanks are hermaphrodites, but are usually described as being females. Unfortunately only 9806 has the WD number visible and all the photos available of this group only show the port side, which has the female sponson.

I have attached the relevant pictures and�two stitched together sets of stills from the video showing the male sponson on the starboard side of 9806 and the leading Mk V*. The sets of stills�are fairly wide.

Mark Hansen · Legend

For some reason, the sets of stills�show up as matchbox sized images which makes them nearly impossible to see. I've taken out eight images from each sequence to make them easier to see.

Centurion · Legend

Mark
Thanks for posting these.
So in fact unless we can see both sponsons of any Mk V or V* we need to be careful about being absolute about its sexual orientation!

Gwyn
I'm puzzled as to why males would be converted to composites when I understood that the purpose was to provide female tanks with defence against German tanks and capability against hardened field works. The only logical explanation I can think of would be if the females were converted by taking sponsons from males which would in turn get the removed sponson from the female. Depending on how this was done it might result in ex male composites being opposite handed to ex female composites.

I had wondered if the Mk IV males�that became female had done so because they had 'donated' their sponsons to Mk V composite conversions.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I accept the point that ideally we would want to see both sponsons to be able to determine a tank's (especially a Mark V or V*'s) "gender".�

I have just taken a second look at my identified Mark V Male to Composites conversions, and it appears that�most are post war.� I have records of many of the tanks during the Great War when they were Male,�and then most either turn up in the British Army of the Rhine or Russia as Composites.��It looks like there was a post war Male to Composite conversion programme carried out.� Possibly (and I'm conscious of the amount of speculation creeping into this thread) it was felt advantageous for Male tanks in Russia to have more machine guns as enemy tanks weren't going to be an issue.

So, if you have a Great War photo of a Mark V or V* in which you can see one Male sponson and a Male�serial number, it's most likely a Male.� If it's a post war photo it might be a Composite.� But we should be suspicious of Female sponsons in any circumstances...��

��