Haven't seen this before. Apologies if it's old news.
Is the chap scrutinising the Tank in the pub car park the top man? No sign of damage to buildings etc., so presumably well behind the lines. Also lots of grousers on tracks.
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Also totally new for me James H ! The style of the house behind shows in my opinion that the this very sharp photo was taken in Belgium and the glass-fitted building in the background that it was a bigger town. Maybe one of those tanks that were later taken on own service by the germans or Meckerfritzes (translation of the dictionary for "grousers " -thanks for this joke in the morning )
Cheers Gerd
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I think the man in the expensive coat might be the Kaiser. It would be nice to find out when and where.
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Hi James H, unfortunatly from his clothing i don't think it would be possible to identify the guy in the coat as this is pretty much wealthy officers rig i can show you many photos of high rankers wearing the same gear, having said that if you can post a better shot of the heads of the two guys I'll take a look and see if i can't identify them....
It must be Kaiser Wilhelm II . The coat with this significant collar ,the art to "wear " his 08 half on the back and the position of the left arm which was crippled since his birth shows this deffinetly in my opinion.
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It must be Kaiser Wilhelm II . The coat with this significant collar ,the art to "wear " his 08 half on the back and the position of the left arm which was crippled since his birth shows this deffinetly in my opinion.
Hi, you could well be right unfortunatly my tired eyes dont see these details I need something bigger.....
I have seen a couple of photos of K Bill inspecting captured British Tanks - one appears to be a Mk II and the other a Mk IV but not this one. The figure looks too broad for Queen Vic's grandson. I'd side with Ironside - we need a bigger picture.
The tank would appear to be F.41 "Fray Bentos" - although the call sign is completely obscured and the brand mark can only be detected in outline - as it has the fitting shell hit on the left gun shield. The place should be Cambrai, the building at right being part of the main railway station ensemble. The man should be a high ranking officer, but certainly not Wilhelm II, the left arm is too strongly developed for that.
"Sometimes things that are not true are included in Wikipedia. While at first glance that may appear like a very great problem for Wikipedia, in reality is it not. In fact, it's a good thing." - Wikipedia.
Meanwhile i am not so sure aboout my opinion that it the Kaiser . I didn't see the soldier holding up his hand to his neck and standing half back to him. A Majesty had not to shown the back (Majestät drehte man nicht den Rücken zu ! ) But the distance to the common soldiers is therefor a sign for a arrangement at royal visits. I will repair my old Videorecorder to look once more the document-film Majesty needs allways sun ( Majestät brauchen Sonne ) Dutch production -(History channel ??) Three hours fully packed with very rare material about Wilhelm II . Good chance to study even his outfits and behaviar . It is known that he changed uniform sometimes more than five rounds a day.
Cheers Gerd
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Reading again an account of the siege of Frey bentos - the port sponson also suffered damage in an attempt to mine it. The explosion was enough to sheer the restaining boltts on the spnson and cause it to slide inwards and would have left visible damage to the outside and bottom of the sponson. It don't see this.
The VVIP is wearing his revolver holster in a position that would make it difficult for a man with two good arms to draw the gun and impossible for some one with a withered left arm
There's no damage on the F.41 left side sponson other than the shell hole in the gunshield. F.41 is prominent in a German anti tank manual and also was filmed for the purpose of a war bonds publicity.
Are we talking about the same F41? F41 Frey Bentos became bogged during 3rd Ypres and underwent a 3 day siege suffering significant damage including a large hole in the front and much machine gun splatter. Reading an account of this action there is no report of a shell hole in the port sponson, the splinter that badly wounded the gunner Private Arthurs coming through the gun port. The shell that caused this did not penetrate the tank but exploded outside (blowing off the unditching beam). The Port sponson was damaged on 23rd August when an explosion occured below the sponson - this was violent enough to to further tilt the tank and to shear the holding bolts on the sponson and cause it to slide inwards. it is barely conceivable that an explosion this strong would nor cause damage to the outside of the sponson. When the tank was finally abandoned by its crew it was on one side and sinking in the mud of a shell hole. It was also within sight and shot of the British lines - it seems therefore unlikely to be salvaged by the Germans There was however a replacement F41 which took part in Cambrai and I believe captured. Is it possible that the two tanks are being conflated?
Hundleby and Strasheim's book on "The German A7V Tank and the captured British Mark IV tanks of World War 1" (pages 154/155) confirms that F41 Fray Bentos was captured at Cambrai, and I agree that this would have been Fray Bentos II, not the original one lost at Passchendaele. I have the Passchendaele Fray Bentos as 2329, and Fray Bentos II at Cambrai I agree as 8019. Both Males.
However I suspect the tank in the photo is not Fray Bentos II. This is because F Battalion tanks carried the alpha-numeric crew numbers painted on the front horns. Fray Bentos II carried F41 painted on its starboard side as shown in the book with the title that's too long to type twice mentioned above. One could reasonably presume it was painted on the port side too. (Interesting if this turns out to be Fray Bentos II as it would be evidence F Battalion only carried their crew numbers on one side.)
More likely is that the tank belonged to a battalion that didn't use this system on their tanks - like E Battalion perhaps.
Have a look at page 125 of G & G's fine book. I think you'll see a picture of the same tank taken at Cambrai railway station. It's not the same location as the above picture and the gun has been turned. However, the damage to the gun shield looks the same and there's a white smudge in the same place as on the above photo. I've seen the above photo before as well but can't remember where.
Bugger me! If you'll pardon the old English. As I'm writing this I turn to page 135 and there it is! Same house in the background but the gun's been moved, as has the Kaiser's doppel ganger.
On photos taken in Berlin you can clearly see that 8019 F.41 "Fray Bentos" carried call sign and brand mark on the left side armour. In the Cambrai photos these might be obscured by dirt. - My deduction stems from the shell hole in the gun shield, as I know only one tank - F.41 - with this characteristic damage being captured early on at Cambrai. F.41 arrived in running condition in Berlin at Christmas 1917.
I assume that this is F41 Frey Bentos II in Berlin. Looking at the two photos its difficult to see that the call sign has been covered in mud in the first!
And herein other view. The 41 can be seen but the F looks odd! However assume it is also Frey Bentos II. Unfortunately the Port gun shiels is not clear on the first of these two shots. MZ do you have available a clear view of tank with the F41 and the damage visible?
No, sorry, I haven't. Look at "En suivant les Tanks" (don't have the English edition), page 107, there's the vehicle with the brand logo of "Fray Bentos" corned beef already scratched free, while the F.41 is still rather obscured by dirt. The damage to the gun shield is very clearly visible. Must be the same picture that Ian refers to as being on page 125 of the English edition.
Dear Gwyn; I am the Director of the Industrial Revolution Museum of Fray Bentos, the city in Uruguay were born the Fray Bentos products, in 1863....
I am looking for all about the Fray Bentos and Fray Bentos II tanks. I`ll be very grateful if you can send me all that you could ! I read that you have a book with some photos, when the Fray Bentos II was captured in Cambrai and carry to Berlin.
Yes, the book I referred to in the post above is called "The German A7V tank and the captured British Mark IV tanks of World War 1" by Maxwell Hundleby and Rainer Strasheim. It was published by Foulis and its ISBN number is 0-85429-788. [This number is followed by an X, but everytime I post this a stupid emoticon appears - GRRRRR!!!] Its Library of Congress Catalogue card number is 90-81739. It is available on Amazon, but is very expensive - it now costs over £100 more than I paid for it when it was first published in 1990!
There is also an account of Fray Bentos' action at Passchendaele (no photos) in Frank Mitchell's "Tank Warfare". A facsimile edition was published by Spa Books with Tom Donovan publishing. ISBN 0-907590-22-5.
The best account of tank actions at Cambrai is definitely "Following the Tanks" by Gibot and Gorcynzski. This is hard to obtain and I do not possess a copy, to my shame.
I strongly recommend that you contact David Fletcher, the historian at the RAC Tank Museum, Bovington Camp, Wareham, Dorset, UK. David is a world authority on tank history and will doubtless be able to help you.
Dear Gwyn; really was a very interesting information about all that is writted about FRAY BENTOS TANK. Thank you for that! I know that some books are expensive. So... I am trying to obtain some text and pictures that the "friend of internet" could send me. I am working just now writting an unknown history about the very big impact that caused the Fray Bentos food sending from my country to Europe in its very hard times of wars. Our people too, don´t know how a simple corned beef tin or an OXO cube had an incredible emotional presence in the trenchs. So, I trying to write about this emotions, not about war. ¿Can you undertand me ? Thanks again for your help.
I mention the Battle of Passchendaele because that was the battle that the tank "Fray Bentos" fought and was lost in; also the Battle of Cambrai because that was where "Fray Bentos II" was captured by the German Army.
I can't send scans of the pages at present. I have technical problems with my scanner at the same time as needing to do alot of scanning for other purposes. I may be able to do so after a fortnight or so. But if someone elsewants to step in first...
Thank you. I´ll expect your photos when you can. It is a moment to said other friends that reads this forum that our INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION MUSEUM in FRAY BENTOS (URUGUAY) needs the cooperation from the historians or researchers in Europe that could send us information, bibliographic references, pictures, photocopies, anythings! about FRAY BENTOS products, tank Fray Bentos (original and Nº II), LIEBIG ´S cards, etc.
And participate in FRAY BENTOS TANK forum at http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=13473674
In Christy Campbell's A Band of Brigands there two references that might or might not be connected with the picture at the start of this thread. Is either of them a possible explanation?
P353: (22nd November, 1917) Unteroffizier Fritz Leu, a somewhat portly, mustachioed army transport driver, crept aboard an abandoned Tank, F.13 Falcon. He got it going in spite of "hearing English voices nearby". Aided by Leutnant Muller (sic) he drove it lurching off the battlefield and all the way to the marketplace of Cambrai.
That would fit Mad Zepp's theory. (If CC is correct, by 1918 Leu was a Hauptmann, driving a Beutepanzer south of St. Quentin, perhaps a reward for his prize)
P364: Kaiser Wilhelm himself went to inspect a captured Mk IV at Bad Kreuznach on 19 December and was photographed with his spike-helmeted retinue smirking like big-game hunters with a dead bison. The Tank was taken by train to Berlin and driven to the zoo, attracting a large crowd along the way.
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"Sometimes things that are not true are included in Wikipedia. While at first glance that may appear like a very great problem for Wikipedia, in reality is it not. In fact, it's a good thing." - Wikipedia.
Hello friends! I inform you that in the website in https://sites.google.com/site/eltanquefraybentos/, there are información that I found abot FRAY BENTOS TANK. I´ll apreciate if you can send me more informatión about to rboretto@gmail.com
Just saw this post today. Anything more on this being the Kaiser? As for my own quick opinion, the elbow of this man's left arm is at the bottom of his rib cage, which is normal, not short like the Kaiser's was.
Meanwhile i am not so sure aboout my opinion that it the Kaiser . I didn't see the soldier holding up his hand to his neck and standing half back to him. A Majesty had not to shown the back (Majestät drehte man nicht den Rücken zu ! )
I think you have a point here. I am purely guessing, but the whole setting isn't 'official' enough: if this would be the Kaiser there would have been a few high ranking figures standing near to him and I don't think they would have photographed the Kaiser at the back. And there's something in this man's posture too: even when the kaiser wasn't posing, the man had a rather 'heads up' appearance, shoulders straight, not like this man. His shorter (and weak) left arm: if anyone has the opportunity to visit Huis Doorn in the Netherlands, there are interesting things to see. His cutlery: the fork has a serrated edge so he could use it as a knife too. And very interesting is his majesty's WC...the chain to flush the toilet is at the right..Further his famous desk chair, it's a horse saddle! The man had a talent for excentric house decoration anyhow. In Berlin, Cecilienhof in Potsdam there's Kaiserins Augusta's room, it is a ships cabin complete with the mast in it, and a 'stereo' player who produced a ships engine noise. It all had to remind the yacht Hohenzollern, were the couple apparantly lived happy days. (Later in 1945 Cecilienhof was the famous theatre were Churchill and Stalin were having their conference, the round table is still there).
Robert Robinson. Sir, I only got my info secondhand from my Mother,FATHER was shot as he and a crewmate went outside to fit the ditching beam . His mate was killed .
(translation of the dictionary for "grousers " -thanks for this joke in 
