I recently found a photograph of a quite strange Freikorps armored car in a book about the 1918/19 Revolution in Bavaria. Overall it looks like an up-armored civilian car/truck of that time equipped with MGs. On the radiator there's a huge skull. The captions says that it successfully participated in the streetfighting in Munich. Does anybody know more about this vehicle and if there's a kit of it? What other armored cars were used during the fight against the Bavarian Soviet Republic?
Can you post a photo of the Armored Car???, The Freikorps used a variety of home built armored cars, and by the description, I am unsure which model it would be.I will try and post a few photo's this weekend for you.
All the Best Tim R
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"The life given us by nature is short; but the memory of a well-spent life is eternal" -Cicero 106-43BC
Could it be, you mean the Daimler-Kraftwagengeschütz? The grille bears the Totenkopf of the Kokampf. The vehicle is armed with a cannon (7.7cm?) and an MG 08/15. Here some scans:
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"Siplicity is the ultimate sophistication" -Leonardo Da Vinci-
Although the K-Flak bears the Totenkopf, it's not Kokampf. It belongs to the Württemberg Gruppe Haas. The Kokampf ACs were with Korps v.Oven. Three of them are known: - "Strolch", an ex-Russian Fiat/15, - "Raudi", an ex-Belgian Peugeot (formerly with the ACM), - "Lotta", an ex-Russian Hotchkiss. These three saw combat on May 2nd, 1919.
Although the K-Flak bears the Totenkopf, it's not Kokampf. It belongs to the Württemberg Gruppe Haas. The Kokampf ACs were with Korps v.Oven. Three of them are known: - "Strolch", an ex-Russian Fiat/15, - "Raudi", an ex-Belgian Peugeot (formerly with the ACM), - "Lotta", an ex-Russian Hotchkiss. These three saw combat on May 2nd, 1919.
It's no foul right!!! "Stolch" is ex-british Armstrong-Whitworth in chassis FIAT 15, captured by Russian Army. "Raudi" is ex-belgian Minerva M1915 with new chassis FIAT 15 (rebuilt in Russia), captured by Belgian armoured car division in Russia. "Lotta" is ex-russian Izhorski-Mgebrov on russian chaais "Russo-Baltique D 24/40".
Others: Ex-russian Izhorski of chassis American FIAT 55 "Lottchen" and more...
When the Germans captured vehicles, they had to be content with the information supplied by the vehicle itself. Generally, the armour didn't show any producer's mark, only the chassis or the motor did. For that reason "Strolch" was identified as Fiat/15. (The "15" added later, when the Fiat/17 vehicle appeared as well.) "Lotta" - captured in 1915 near Wilna/Vilnius - was found to be a 60 HP Hotchkiss. "Raudi" - captured in 1916 near Swistelniky - was found to be a Peugeot. It was lost by the Belgian ACM (the former Belgian owner had been Constant le Marin, who reported the vehicle as blown up).
When the Germans captured vehicles, they had to be content with the information supplied by the vehicle itself. Generally, the armour didn't show any producer's mark, only the chassis or the motor did. For that reason "Strolch" was identified as Fiat/15. (The "15" added later, when the Fiat/17 vehicle appeared as well.) "Lotta" - captured in 1915 near Wilna/Vilnius - was found to be a 60 HP Hotchkiss. "Raudi" - captured in 1916 near Swistelniky - was found to be a Peugeot. It was lost by the Belgian ACM (the former Belgian owner had been Constant le Marin, who reported the vehicle as blown up).
"Stolch" is english built Armstrong-Whiteworth/FIAT, this cars only on FIAT 15-Ter chassis built!!! (FIAT 15-Ter was in 1912 constructed!).
"Lotta" is 100% Russo-Baltique-Izhorski (constructed by Stabs-Hauptmann Mgebroff). Only 2 this cars built in Izhorsky Work, the same was Pierce-Arrow Izhorski Mgebroff!
"Raudi" is Minerva-Mors (?), I mean no Peugeot (?) With new chassis in Russia rebuilt, new chassis of italian FIAT 15 or american FIAT 55, this is 100%. Maybe is a ex-Peugeot with new chassis. 100% chassis FIAT (look at the wheels and others).
"Lottchen" is ex-Russian Izhorski-FIAT with new unknown chassis (here no FIAT chassis). Izhorski FIAT is analog as Armstrong-Whiteworth FIAT, only trrel is others!!!
I have more as 500 picures of all russian armoured cars, in Russia was not Hotchkiss-Armoured cars!!!
All in Russia in Great War built armoured cars (first tabel left) and all in Russia imported armoured cars and chassis (second little tabel reight). Russo-Baltique, Pierce-Arrow, Armstrong-Whitewort-FIAT. Armstrong-Whitworth-Jarrot, Izhorski FIAT, Garford-Poutiloff, Berliet-Izhorski, Renault-izhorski, Austin Mk 1, Mk 2, Mk 3, Russian Austin (Poutiloff), Peerless, Case, FWD, Allis-Chalmers, Sheffield-Simplex and more... No Hotchkiss!!!
Which indicates that the book - although very impressive - is not comprehending everything.
I have also many others books, also original documents of this time from Izhorsky work, also german books.... I serach 30 years this thema. It was NO armoure car by Izhorski (Projekt of Captain Mgebroff) with Hotchkiss chassis!!! Renault, Russo-Baltique, Benz, Pierce-Arrow, Isotta-Fraschini and White OLNY!!!
The Hotchkiss chassis is well decumented in German sources, no doubt about it. On some pictures the vehicle even features as "Französisches Panzerautomobil" (French AC) or "Französisches Panzerautomobil in Russland erbeutet" (French AC captured in Russia). The inscription on it "EKP 10 HW1" indicates the place of capture (Etappen-Kraftwagen-Park 10, Hauptwerkstatt 1), in AOR of German 10th Army on the eastern front. Another source indicates that it was captured during the advance on Wilna/Vilnius in 1915, which coincides with 10th Army's AOR. Everything else is open to speculation. As already explained, no producer's mark was found on the armoured body. - There may, however, have been two cars of simular outward appearance in German possession in 1915, but only one made its way to the Kriegsbeuteausstellung and later to Freikorps service.
The Hotchkiss chassis is well decumented in German sources, no doubt about it. On some pictures the vehicle even features as "Französisches Panzerautomobil" (French AC) or "Französisches Panzerautomobil in Russland erbeutet" (French AC captured in Russia). The inscription on it "EKP 10 HW1" indicates the place of capture (Etappen-Kraftwagen-Park 10, Hauptwerkstatt 1), in AOR of German 10th Army on the eastern front. Another source indicates that it was captured during the advance on Wilna/Vilnius in 1915, which coincides with 10th Army's AOR. Everything else is open to speculation. As already explained, no producer's mark was found on the armoured body. - There may, however, have been two cars of simular outward appearance in German possession in 1915, but only one made its way to the Kriegsbeuteausstellung and later to Freikorps service.
-- Edited by mad zeppelin at 10:42, 2007-11-21
Herr Major,
leider viel, was in deutschen Dokomenten und Bücher geschrieben ist, sind meistens die Märchen! Das Panzerauto "Lotta" ist eindeutig ein beim Ischorski-Werk in Kolpino bei St. Petersburg gebautes PzAuto, nach dem Projekt von Stabs-Hauptmann Mgebroff - seine Panzerwagen sind nicht zu vewechseln (!!!), alle haben seine typische Merkmäle! Ich habe Originalunterlagen von Ischorski-Werk - Bilanzen von jedem Monat der Kriegszeiten, wann, wieviel und welche Panzewagen dort gebaut wurden. Also - Renault ist es nicht, White auch nicht, Benz (auf Rennwagen-Fahrgestell von Benz 200 PS, auf dem Franz Hörner anno 1913 in St. Petersburg russisches und europäesches Geschwindigkeitsrekord 202,5 km/h gestellt hat) ist es auch nicht. Entweder Russo-Baltique, oder Pierce-Arrow - das ist 100%. Wahrscheinlich könnten die Deutschen auf dem Motor das russische Wort "Russo-Balt" ncht lesen und dachten, es sei ein Hotchkiss? Ich habe längst mein Vertrauen auf deutsche Bücher und Dokumenten verlohren. Was Osten betrifft, sind es (und war es immer) zu 90% Märchen und Vorurteile! Ich würde mich freuen, wenn Sie mir die Fotos (Scans) von diesem Hotchkiss zeigen! Zum Beispiel (ein Offtop): Die Bilder aus dem deutschem Buch von 1912 über Kaiserfahrt von Nikolaus II: 1. Konnte der Autor bis 3 nicht zählen? Einpferdgespann nennt er "Trojka" 2. Sehen diese Tataren wie die "russische Bauern" aus?
So, Unterofizier Ivan hat sich gehorsam gemeldet!
P.S. Hier ist ein deutscher Panzerwaen, diesesmal von Russen im 1917 erbeutet. Wissen Sie was ist das? Ich denke, das ist ein Ehrhardt, aber ich bin nicht sicher.
Excuse, but my English very bad, I could not in English so to say, that I wanted, more I shall not write on German. I not say that Mad Zeppelin is the good researcher, but it (and its documents) is mistaken in the given question. In the Russian Imperial army there was no armoured car on chassis Hotchkiss, I precisely know it, 100 %. I investigated more as 30 years this theme, in all Russian archives, studied all documents. Anywhere any mention of Russian armoured car on Hotchkiss-Chassis!!!
Somebody can identification taken for a drive by me? It captured german armoured car (top fhoto) 1917 a Ehrhardt, or no???
From "Kriegstechnische Zeitschrift", 1916, page 73-71 "Kriegsbeute" (Mittler, Berlin, 1916) - my translation: "The centre piece of the motor vehicle booty is a 60 HP Hotchkiss 4 cylinder armoured car, which was captured on Russian soil (Wilna). The equipment of this vehicle consisted of a quick firing gun that was carried in an armoured turret turnable on ball bearings. ... The chassis is of French origin, the armour doesn't show any producer's mark. Apparently this is a combination of two parts that possibly hadn't been meant to be married."
Concerning the armoured vehicle captured by the Russians: I've a picture (but regrettably no copy right) of a very simular vehicle in Austrian service. Otherwise an enigma.
From archival documents of a Izhirski factory: Under the project of captain Mgebroff it has been constructed in 1915 five armoured cars and 11 armoured cars in 1916
1915: 1x on Isotta-Fraschini chassis (italian armour was change to russian armour). 1x on Russo-Baltique D 24/40 HP car chassis 1x on Pierce-Arrow Typ 48 car chassis 1x on Benz 82/200 HP race car chassis 1x on White TBC light truck chassis
1916: 11x on Renault 40 CV chassis.
Everyone were with machine guns, only White with a 76 mm gun. All cars at me are the exact pictures, only two from them were very similar Russo-Baltique and Pierce-Arrow. These two both were taken by 1917 Germans under Wilna (Vilnius). I find one explanation only - on one of them armoured cars the engine by this time in an army workshop could replace to Hotchkiss-Engine. That is why at Germans it appears so, as Hotchkiss. All these is easy identificated, all of them are constructed under one Mgebroff-project with the inclined reservation.
Photo: Izhorski Factory anno 1915. Left building of White-Mgebroff, reight rebuilding of Austin 1st Series (all 1st Austins was rebuild, english armour was change to russisn armour, because russian armour was better). Fhoto from archive RGAKFFD (St. Peterburg) fee from copyright (in Russia all pictures 70 years old and more are free).
Anno 2007 in Latvia comming new movie "Fighters of Latvia". This is latvian historical-patriotic movie with story of civil war in Latvia (latvian troops vs. Freikorps and vs. Red army). The Latvians maked very good a replica of Freikorps vechicle Daimler BAK Kw 14 "Max" on chassis of old soviet GAZ 53 lorry.
Thanks for all your answers, Mad Zeppelin your knowledge regarding this confusing time is really stunning! In the meantime I have found some more interesting pics of the battle for Munich: Freikorps artillery Strolch Daimler Kraftwagengeschütz in action an "AFV" of the Red Army an apparently self-built armored Freikorps car Something I had been completely unaware of was the use of airpower during this conflict. The Red Army had two aircraft at its disposal but lacked loyal pilots, furthermore members of the Thule secret society sabotaged both of them. The Freikorps used Planes for reconaissance and leaflet dropping but also for strafing vehicles. Some aircraft were shot down by the Red Army including this one (D-VII?) If somebody has more information about the Waldler Bataillon or a pic of one of the armoured trains used by the Garde Kavallerie Schützen Division/Kommando I'd highly appreciate it!
Thanks for all your answers, Mad Zeppelin your knowledge regarding this confusing time is really stunning! In the meantime I have found an apparently self-built armored Freikorps car
-- Edited by fabe at 21:24, 2008-01-01
Dear Kamerad! Thank you for new photos of Feeikorps Armoored cars - the new picture of ex-russian Armstrong-Whitworth-FIAT "Strolch" and second car. It is no "self-bulit"!!! It is ex-russian Izhorski-Mgebroff on chassis of Russo-Baltique D 24/40 HP car - what Mr. Mad Zeppelin say "Hotchkiss". It made in Russia, captured by Germans.
Comrade Ivan, I notice that the strange (German? or Austrian?) AC captured by the Russians has wheels for running it on rails. So, it's a kind of mini armoured train?
I think it is a car, withoud tyres. Or armoured draisine? Egal, many armoured cars in ost-front was double function - street and rail road, also russian cars.
Both above photos illustrate M1914 K-Flak vehicles. The first is an Daimler, mounting a 7,7cm Krupp BAK, and the 2nd an Ehrhardt armed with the Rheinmetall 7,7cm BAK. Where is the post illustrating a railway vehicle ? I can't seem to find it in the tread.
Raudi is DEFINITIVELY a Peugeot armoured car from ACM (Belgian Expeditionnary Corps). There were NO Minerva with the ACM. The only Minerva armoured cars in Russia could have been later in Odessa.
Thanks that's exactly the picture I meant, do you have any information regarding their use by Freikorps in Bavaria?
