Landships II

James H · Legend

The Mendeleev Tank.

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Dear James ,

Russian industry in a primitive state ... The same thoughts had the german general-staff
in second WW and then suddenly there was a T34 ! biggrin

But really : In the time since the invention of Colt-pistols there was a steady change,better
flow of technical inventions from the new world to russia. Think for example at the
hotchkiss revolving guns ,winchester repeating rifles for the russian army and so on.
Remember even at our discussion about the madsen.
I can imagine that engineers such as Mendeleev ( not Mendelejev ? ) had ways to
patent-files of the Holt company . I have some patent drawings here from 1915 by a�short
view in my Caterpillar-handbook. What i want to say is that patent files were allways a
public affair when used in civil case.
Besides :Also many pics of old military versions from Holt -but every picture has this
add : all rights reserved... Often wanted to let them flow here in former topics but
for this reason..
Example for present time : I heard two years ago Russia develops a revolutionary
super assault tank -stronger armed and faster than the US abrams M1 ,but when
wanted to get more information no information as if i had dreamed it .

�Best regards to the industrial heart of Great Britain wink

�Gerd

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Sounds like the excuse that was made in Germany: "And didn't we have any information about tracked vehicles when we had to start tank construction..."
Not so, tracked vehicles had been well discussed in pre-WW1 military magazines, had been present at fairs - and in agriculture (East Prussia). It was just another cheap excuse like "and didn't we have the industrial capacities",
Given the state of affairs in 1906-09, there is no reason why a Russian military engineer should not have known about tracked movement.

Roger Todd · Legend

A Russian engineer called Blinov�designed a steam caterpillar tractor in the 1880s, which looked surprisingly modern (apart from the driver's cab, which looked either like a small garden shed or an outdoor khazi - you pays your money, you takes your choice...):

And although practical tracked vehicles only started to appear in the early 1900s (such as Lombard, Hornsby et al, all of them before Holt), the principle of caterpillar tracks had been known since Edgeworth patented a tracked cart in the 1770s. An American, Batter, designed a steam-powered caterpillar tractor in the 1880s:

Another American, Ames in Iowa, had actually built one even earlier, in the 1860s. Journals such as Scientific American featured similar inventions periodically.

And despite the overall relatively primitive state of Russian industry at the time, at a more individual level, there were incredibly innovative minds in Russian engineering (and science). After all, the world's first four-engined giant aeroplane was Russian (Sikorski). Starting in the 1890s,�Tsiolkovskii, a mere schoolteacher, devised practically the whole corpus of theory concerning liquid-fuelled multistage rockets, space stations, etc.�Throughout the nineteenth century, imaginative Russian engineers designed submarines, aeroplanes (Mozhaiski, 1884), you name it, Russians were thinking about it.

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 16:28, 2008-03-05

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Hi Roger ,James ,Mad and the other gentlemen !

First pic is Minnis tractor from 1869 developed in - Ames Iowa -

the second one Stratton's steam-tractor build in "Moscow" Pennsylvania 1893

Moscow ? goes a light up ?? idea

Best regards
Gerd

James H · Legend

How very, very�interesting. This principle had obviously been around for decades, but was the province of engineers and farmers rather than the military. I suppose the distinction of being the only actual soldier who recognised the possibilities before WWI must go to Gunther B�rstyn.

There's a piece from the New York Times on the Tanks in general that contains some interesting remarks, including: The forerunner of the present "Whippet" type is found in a tractor patented in 1888 in the United States and known as the "Batter" tractor. I think that's a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc, but it's true in a way.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9A03E3DC1F3BE03ABC4B52DFB2668382609EDE

Roger Todd · Legend

James H wrote:
...I think that's a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc

AKA 'journalistic cobblers'!

Actually, as you say, in some ways it's true. One of the most interesting aspects of the Batter design is the curve of the lower run of the tracks. Most early designs had relatively long, flat lower profiles, but clearly Batter realised that he needed a curve to allow the small wheels behind the tracks to steer the vehicle.�This is something Tritton latched onto as well when he modified the Bullock tracks on the Lincoln Machine, giving them a 'fish belly' profile, and which was a feature of all Tritton's subsequent designs. Batter's is one of the most interesting of the Victorian designs, and probably the most practicable. Attached is part of his patent.

Gerd, you are of course right - it's Minnis from Ames in Iowa, not Ames from Iowa! My excuse is that I was at work when I wrote that... wink �Meanwhile, what a superb photo of the Minnis machine! Prior to that, I had a tiny reproduction of the same photo I found on a Spanish site ages ago. Minnis's machine, with its tricycle undercarriage, strikes me as almost a proto-Killen Strait.

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 06:45, 2008-03-06

Hughbearson · General

Sorry to pester you, but what is the large machine behind the steam-powered caterpillar tractor?

Lafettenheini · Colonel

Think you can only mean the "modell" of the tank construction which was recomended

to be powered by the steam caterpillar . All a lil bit strange today but in the years of

steamage and industrial revolution there where alot of this " inventions" .

If you only watch some old film material about the constructions of aeroplanes before

the I WW ...

Nothing seemed to be impossible .....

sincerely

Gerd

CharlieC · Legend

Hughbearson wrote:

�
Sorry to pester you, but what is the large machine behind the steam-powered caterpillar tractor?
�

Perhaps it's a representation of the Landship from the H.G.Wells story of the same title.

I think there is some confusion about the capabilities of the Russians - the scientists and engineers were quite up to date with their Western counterparts. Although they could create advanced designs problems arose when they tried to get them built. Russian industry was fairly disorganised and poorly managed. This state of affairs didn't improve until the Stalinist reforms of industry in the 1920s and 30s.

Regards,

Charlie

�

James H · Legend

CharlieC wrote:

�
Hughbearson wrote:
Sorry to pester you, but what is the large machine behind the steam-powered caterpillar tractor?

I think it's a model of the "land fortress" allegedly designed by the Kaiser. There's a drawing of it in Tank by Macksey and Batchelor.
�

Hughbearson · General

Ah, makes sense, I� have heard of that before.
Its strange that he calls it 'The Land Fortress', since (Unless you consider ships to be like that) all fortresses are on land! cry

James H · Legend

The Flying Fortress wasn't.

Well, only some of the time.

Date: Oct 7, 2010

I think most people under-estimate the capabilities of pre-communist Russia. They were a manufacturing giant in the world by todays standards and in many ways ahead of the US during the industrial revolution. After the Czar was murdered and the country fell to the communists their capabilities collapsed. There was no incentive for innovation and inventors, scientists, engineers all became government employees who worked as the State required them to. Same thing we are headed for if we don't stop the Progressives (Liberals). Capitalism inspired the Industrial Revolution and fueled it. It is the basis of all innovation. Governments don't invent things. People do. When the government subdues the people only Tyranny thrives.