Landships II

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Lancia Survivor

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Well, I guess that's a no and another no, then!

Disappointing, as the Lancia in the museum looks like its in good shape. And the Lancia and Citroen found in Afghanistan must have gone somewhere!

Trenchfoot · Sergeant

How recently were they discovered? If it was before the 9/11 that car may be gone for good. The Taliban raided and destroyed many museums in March of 2001. They even destroyed those Buddhist statues. If they were around during that time my guess is that they were destroyed. Islamic Fundamentalists don't like World War One that much, considering that the war destroyed the last Muslim empire, the Ottoman Empire.

Rob · Legend

The photos of the vehicles in Afghanistan were taken after the invasion, by US troops. Apparently the FT 17 went to a museum in the US (Patton Museum?) so wouldn't be too surprised if the other two followed with

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Only one FT17 was allowed to be exported as the Afghans want the other for a planned museum. I would think that they would want to keep the Lancia as well. Saying that though a number of between the wars aircraft were found in the same place and were planned to be recovered to the UK, although i have heard no more on this.

Tim (too)

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

There were at least 2 FT tanks found in Afghanistan by the US military. They can be seen in these photos, still in the Afghani wreckers yard where they were 'found'

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7700258@N05/936710363/in/set-72157601073012940/

and

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7700258@N05/937553780/in/set-72157601073012940/

but i think they both went to the USA. Unless this photo was taken in Afghanistan...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7700258@N05/937554050/in/set-72157601073012940/

however, this photo states that only one went there

http://www.flickr.com/photos/taerkar/838594779/

so that matter needs to be clarified. (Maybe Saumur got one?)

But I have been wondering about this Lancia IZM, which is not from Afghanistan, and is probably in a museum in Italy, but nobody seems to know anything about it

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oronzo/62594014/

and this other Lancia, which was also found by the US military also in Afghanistan also in a wreckers yard (different or same as the FT one?)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7700258@N05/936793253/in/set-72157601073019460/

(and the Citroen that can be seen behind it)

Really the two questions are: what museum is the well-preserved Lancia in? and has the Afghan Lancia been moved to a museum somewhere for restoration?

lostiznaos · Field Marshal

As far I know, the preserved Lancia is stored on a museeum in G�nes, Northern Italy.
I'll try to find the exact location!
Regards
Gilles(Lostiznaos)

wuestehu · Lieutenant

Here more pixs on the AFGHAN ft17...courtesy of a friend...(French forces) FT WRECK

-- Edited by wuestehu at 19:45, 2008-06-17

Great War Truck · Brigadier

From my searches on the web it would appear that two FT17's went back to the USA (and not the 1 as i had thought) and in the meantime two more have been found. Also taken back (to the UK) were the air frames from six Hawker Hinds. The question remains, where is the Lancia?

Tim (too)

Great War Truck · Brigadier

The Lancia was at "Camp Warehouse" in Kabul. Here is a link to a satellite photo of Camp Warehouse

http://www.satellite-sightseer.com/id/3290

Can anybody spot it.

Tim (too)

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Tim (too), I find it mildly disturbing/amusing that satellite images of a US Military camp are readily available on the internet. I hope that the camp is not shared with the US 'allies'.

Also, I think there is a lot of confusion about the Afghan FT tanks. The two different tanks in the two bottom pictures posted by wuestehu were around before the 'discovery' of the two tanks in the top two pictures. The 'authenticity' of the two bottom photos (lets call them the 'earlier tanks') has been questioned, in terms of the location and date. It is plausible (or at least, not impossible) that the 'earlier tanks' may be the 'later tanks' because the date for the 'earlier tanks' is not confirmed. (some have said early 1980s).

AFAIK the 'earlier tanks' have never been seen. Only the photos exist (and no-one knows who took the pictures, or where or when). And then the two 'later tanks' were found and taken to the USA. And then, nothing.

(Except for the Lancia and the Citroen, that have now disappeared in a puff of smoke)

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Yes, that is a bit worrying. I wonder what else is available.

I have found several references to a WW2 Italian tank having been recovered from Afghanistan and taken back to Italy. Now what probability is that a WW2 italian tank ever made it to Afghanistan. Far more likely to be pre WW2 and to most hacks an armoured car is much the same as a tank.

Also "Camp Warehouse" appears to be a logistics depot, and not like Baghram which was used as a scrap yard. It therefore seems implausible for an armoured car to be taken to camp warehouse unless it was destined for higher things. I suspect that it is the one that has gone to Italy. Maybe one of our Italian� members could confirm this.

Tim (too)

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Oh No. Wrong again. Apparently a number of L3 tanks made it to Afghanistan. I should have checked my facts before i posted.

Tim (too)

HISTORY
In addition to seeing action in the Second Italo-Abyssinian War and the Spanish Civil War, the L3 was used everywhere Italians fought in World War II. In June 1940, when Italy entered World War II, this tankette was found in all three Italian armored divisions (except for two tank battalions), the tank battalions in the motorized divisions, the light tank squadron group in each Celere ("Fast" or "Rapid") division, and numerous independent tank battalions.

Some 2000-2500 were built in different models and variants. 20 L3/33 tanks were sold to China. Other L3s were sold to Afghanistan, Albania, Austria, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, China, Greece, Hungary, Iraq, and Nationalist Spain. Some were given to the Axis state of Croatia. Captured L3 tanks were also used by the Greeks.

Eric · Colonel

Speaking of the Afghan FT17, one arrived at Saumur museum, I saw it.

All the best

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Thanks Eric; that ties up some loose threads in one of these mysteries.

Theory: Two FT tanks found in scrapyard in Afghanistan. Both taken to Patton Armour Museum, USA. One�stays at the Patton Museum. The other goes to Saumur, France.

That explains the picture of both wrecks together (in Patton Museum?). The picture of the signboard (in Patton Museum) that talks of ONE tank. And the rumour that Saumur have acquired another FT (that they will use to make a complete Renault FT TSF).

Doesnt help with the Lancia questions though! confused

Eric · Colonel

Hello,

About the FT and Saumur, they are currently use some parts of the Afghan one to do a running FT, the Afghan one was not in good shape but has a lot of wear parts in good shape.
About the radio FT, they plan to rebuild it for static display, I don't know with which parts. However, they have a huge storage of parts.

All the best

Mario Wens · Lieutenant

philthydirtyanimal wrote:

Does anyone know where this armoured car is? I have asked the photograph's owner, but not got an answer as yet.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oronzo/62594014/

Isn't that in the CIVICO MUSEO DI GUERRA PER LA PACE DIEGO DE HENRIQUEZ in Trieste, Italy?

http://www.immaginidistoria.it/immagine2.php?id_img=364&id=16

MarkV · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello,

Here is a link to another forum.� "Tim the Tank Nut" is the person in charge of restoring the Patton Museum's Renault tank.

MarkV

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Eric, Mario and MarkV; great�work guys! Thank you.

By my reckoning, that clears up everything except what has happened to the Afghan Lancia and Citroen armoured cars.

I hear that Trieste is lovely this time of year! And not so far from Saumur!

wuestehu · Lieutenant

Still digging....
Saumur did not get any FT 17 from Afghanistan. Info sources tell me that there were two FTs (italian copies) and the US took one while the French had an option on the second one. After many debates involving diplomacy -"not looking like looters"- and possible presence of asbestos in the wreck and health hazard, the French dragged on to long and the remaining one was also shipped to the US.

wuestehu · Lieutenant

Philthydirtyanimal said

"I find it mildly disturbing/amusing that satellite images of a US Military camp are readily available on the internet"

What about top secret propeller of our latest nuclear submarines:
See second article "Exposed secrets"

http://www.newsletter.vonfrederick.com/February2008Newsletter.html

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=ryqjnb4s57d5&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=10352732&encType=1

Go Bird eye,�zoom�and surf the sub, 360 degrees! Disgusting!

-- Edited by wuestehu at 01:38, 2008-06-26

-- Edited by wuestehu at 01:40, 2008-06-26

-- Edited by wuestehu at 01:41, 2008-06-26

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

A Lancia IZ in Lybia?

http://picasaweb.google.com/PaulsPhotoPages/TripToTripoliAndBenghaziInLybia12Mar2009#5315000854945309810

And what's the tracked vehicle nearby?

http://picasaweb.google.com/PaulsPhotoPages/TripToTripoliAndBenghaziInLybia12Mar2009#5315002736613305186

-- Edited by Runflat on Thursday 2nd of April 2009 08:35:03 PM

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Amazing, Runflat!

The tracked vehicle nearby is a Fiat 3000.

Is there any more that you can tell us about these? Any more info?

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

What you see is all I know.

I thought Fiat 3000 but the tracks look different to other photos I've seen and the track idler arrangement is different as well.

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

As this string has been reopened, the Lancia that we started with is almost certainly ex the De Henriquez Arsenal that was at Trieste (see Wheels and Tracks magazine #10).

Also, this (about an Italian vs Australian action at Derna in 1941) has an intreging reference to Lancias (page 28+) http://www.luiz.claudio.nom.br/loc/issues/LOC03.pdf

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

I've just re-read the earlier posting - the collection is obviosly still at Trieste, just indoors now!

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

You're right; I'm wrong! It's not a normal Fiat 3000. The track frames are similar, and it is very 3000 ish. But the body is all wrong; only three rivets high on the glacis plate instead of four, front (driver?) section is higher than the tracks instead of lower, and I had assumed the turret was nearby but maybe it just never had one. The hull seems a lot taller than a regular 3000 hull, as well.

Could it be a 'command' version of the 3000, like the TSF version of the Renault? An improvised SPG? Or could this be a replica made for 'Lion of the Desert'?

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

hmm.... very interesting photos.

Great find Runflat!

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

It would appear the "Fiat 3000" is a replica built for the film "Lion of the Desert".

http://www.com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=11071

Looking at clips of this film on YouTube, replica Lancia IZs were also used.� So I think I think that wraps up the mystery!� Pity it wasn't more exciting.

-- Edited by Runflat on Sunday 31st of May 2009 10:52:58 PM

-- Edited by Runflat on Sunday 31st of May 2009 10:53:33 PM

Date: Jul 26, 2010

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