Landships II

LeoC1 · Corporal

"Grasshopper II"...

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Hi Pete

Here's a quick answer:

I can think of only three reasons why a Mark IV would not have unditching rails.

1. It was not deployed to a combat zone.
2. It has been captured by German forces and they have removed the rails (something they rarely did, or did only once).

Neither of these reasons apply to Grasshopper II, so

3. The unditching gear has been shot away.

I have seen photos only of the wreck of Grasshopper II. In those photos there is substantial damage to the top of the tank,�and plenty of material nearby that could be the remains of the unditching rails.

If you have photos of Grasshopper II before she was destroyed, and she is not sporting unditching rails, then could it be before she was deployed?

I am sure you will get a lot of responses from all the experts here, but hopefully this will help a little.

And I'm sure we would all like to see the pictures of your project; I certainly would.

Centurion · Legend

I can think of a fourth and posibly a fifth. The fourth is that it is in transit to or has only just arrived in France as unditiching rails were fitted there rather than in the factory (possibly due to restrictions in the British railway loading gauge). The�fifth is the possibility that�some of the very early MK IVs weren't fitted with them or that the tank was used for non combat duties when first arrived in France and�ws rushed into service at Cambrai without them. Firespite II appears to have fought at Cambrai without them for example. There are photos tht appear to be of�MK IVs in France without the rails.

LeoC1 · Corporal

Seems as thought o be on the safe side rails would be in order.
Here's the issue.

The model kits forward track commanders observation station (cuppola?) is too wide and unless I remove a great wack of resin the rails sit a bit wider than they should.
Although the rails look fine from the front (I'm assuming the real rails are parallel) but its the rear were its most noticeable.

Due to the rails being too wide there is no space for the little dog leg that the rail makes in order to attach to the rear of the tank. So I would have to make the rail straight in order to work. Not accurate.

As an aside would the Canadian Mk IVs have had the rails mounted? I'm thinking of the ones in Britain at the end of the war.

Again thanks for your patience, but I'd like to get it right.

Pete

Centurion · Legend

Slightly confused - the Mk IV didn't have a commander's cupola (the Mk V did) just the drivers cab where the commander sat next to the driver.
I thought that the Canadians at the end of WW1 were training on Mk V and V*s (there would be little point in training up on Mk IVs at that stage as these had an entirely different driving arrangement with a driver and two gear/brakesmen wheras the Mk V just had a driver. Training tanks in the UK do not appear to have had unditching rails fitted.

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Pete

quick answer again:

No, the Mark IV tanks in Britain that the Canadians were training in did not have unditching rails.

(The only Mark IV tanks in Britain that did have unditching rails were ones that had come back from fighting in France, and they were not used for training).

Other Mark IV tanks also had no rails (if you wanted more choice): The touring tanks such as Britannia in the USA (there was more than one tank posing as Britannia), and 4643 Grit in Australia, and the Tank Bank tanks (with notable exceptions) in the UK. I think a 'Tank parade' would make a great model!

LeoC1 · Corporal

Thanks for the information.
I was unsure of what to call the forward cab of the tank (sorry, "cupola" came to mind), thanks for the clarification.
I've tried to Google information on the Canadian Tank Corps 1918, a bit of information regarding the formation and subsequent disbandment, but thats about it.
I do have one photo in "The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps - An Illustrative History"
and it does show what looks to be a collection of IVs and Vs at Bovington or at least that is what the caption says.
I guess I'll have to make the rails after all, no worries I'm up for it.
I do recall seeing a thread on tank names, so I'll give it a search and see if it has any more information on Grasshopper...although now that I'm building the rails I may just build "C1/Canada"
Thanks for all you help
Pete

Centurion · Legend

LeoC1 wrote:

I do have one photo in "The Royal Canadian Armoured Corps - An Illustrative History"
and it does show what looks to be a collection of IVs and Vs at Bovington or at least that is what the caption says.

Any chance of posting a scan?

Attached photo of Canadian Mk V* at Bovington.
I've seen a photo of two Canadians at Bovington in fron of a MK I at the end of 1918 but it doesn't mean they trained on Mk Is merely that there were some at Bovington just as there were Mk IVs

Incidentally the photo shows that some home service tanks did have unditching rails (and red and white id stripes!)

-- Edited by Centurion at 15:40, 2008-07-03

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

"Incidentally the photo shows that some home service tanks did have unditching rails (and red and white id stripes!)"

or, it shows that this picture was not taken at Bovington. or it was not taken during that period of time.

"Always mistrust captions"

and it is clearly not a Mark IV, which is what Pete was asking about.

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal at 16:27, 2008-07-03

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal at 16:28, 2008-07-03

Centurion · Legend

philthydirtyanimal wrote:

"Incidentally the photo shows that some home service tanks did have unditching rails (and red and white id stripes!)"

or, it shows that this picture was not taken at Bovington. or it was not taken during that period of time. etc.

"Always mistrust captions"

No this photo is also of a Mk V*�in Boscombe�also with unditching rails and stripes�plus a home service number�(perhaps the crew had decided to take a run to the pictures)

-- Edited by Centurion at 16:31, 2008-07-03

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

At the risk of straying further from Pete's question...

Since last Cambrai Day I have had a video posted on my Youtube pages of the Tank mark V*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9grofGCY1ns

Near to the beginning it shows a Mark V* star with a 'home service number', unditching rails and unditching beam, and WRW recognition stripes,�rolling down a street (probably in Britain, and maybe Boscombe High Street as it�looks like�the same tank as in your picture) in a parade.

Just after that there is a short sequence of (allegedly) Canadians giving people rides in a Mark V* (allegedly at Bovington) that has unditching rails.

So maybe the V* tanks were made with unditching rails, whereas the Mark IV tanks had them fitted in France? Maybe (probably) there are other explanations.

(But Pete was asking about Mark IV tanks, not five-star)

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal at 16:58, 2008-07-03

Centurion · Legend

I was just going to suggest to Pete that the Canadian tank Batt would be most likely to have Mk V and V* rather than IV. The photo I've posted plus your interesting video clip would tend to support this.

LeoC1 · Corporal

The kit is most definitely a Mk IV and I figured out how to make the rails last night so all is okay there.
I'm still searching for the thread that listed the C company tanks that someone posted recently.

I'm not sure of the battle , Cambrai? (I work mostly in modern Canadian armour, so I apologize for my ignorance), but it was fascinating reading.

Would there be a list of all/most/some of the tanks that participated in the battle at Cambrai? I find the names very interesting ( I love the fact they called a monster like a Mk IV - "Fairy"...)

One question comes to mind though, is the unditching beam square or kind of angular on one face and flat on the opposite face.

Thanks for all your help

Pete

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Pete, the unditching rails are 'L' section, and are not flush to the cupola (conning tower/cabin/whatever-you-wanna-call-it).

In the photos of the Mark IV at Aberdeen Proving grounds you can clearly see the mounts for the unditching rails (although it doesn't have the rails fitted):

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs_new/number_20/P1010466.jpg

This photo shows the rails were not flush to the cupola roof:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7700258@N05/2201327183/sizes/o/in/set-72157601074582281/

and the�best preserved Mark IV is at The Army Museum in Brussels:

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/mk4_brussels2.jpg

(although I think the white-red-white stripes were not in use until after Cambrai)

EDIT: sorry just noticed you said 'beam' not 'rail'!!!� Yes the beam is angular, like a triangle with the point cut off (a trapezium). This photo sort of shows it:

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs/mk4_walkaround/mk4_unditchinggear.JPG

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal at 21:04, 2008-07-03

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal at 21:31, 2008-07-03

LeoC1 · Corporal

Fantastic, thanks you. I had a quick peek at your flickr files, wow I wish I seen those before I stared. Now I going to have to build a few more of these beasties.

Is there a comprehensive list of the names used on the Mark IV at Cambrai? very interested to see that.

Thanks again for all your help
Pete

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Pete, here is the orbat according to G+G "following the tanks cambia"

Cheers

LeoC1 · Corporal

Perfect, Thank you very much.
I'll post pics when she's done.
Pete