Landships II

ken musgrave · Corporal

Another Bussing beast

Centurion · Legend

It appears to have been a one off, it did see active service on the Rumanian front, to some effect apparently

-- Edited by Centurion at 21:00, 2008-07-15

28juni14 · Hero

Yes, only one produced, and it belonged to Panzerkraftwagen-MG-Zug 1.�� The unit saw action in three theatres; France (on the Verdun front 6 Mar 16);� Russia, and Rumania.�

The unit came into being in Aug 1915, and by Jun '16� it consisted of:

3 Officers
47 other ranks
1XRadPz Daimler 1915
1XRadPz Ehrhardt 1915
1XRadPz Bussing 1915
2XLKW
1XPKW
Plus 3X radio and support vehicles.

By December the unit had added 2XRadPz Minerva 1914.��Interestingly, by Jun 1918 the Minervas�no longer appear on their TOE, but the lone built�Daimler MG-Wagen�1914�had been added�!�� So it can be assumed this rare�vehicle did see action.� �The unit seems to have been a success, as a further 10 Zugen were formed by war's end.

Source: "Die deutschen Radpz im Ersten Welkfrieg"

Centurion · Legend

The information that I have is slightly different in that the unit went straight to the Roumanian front (did not pass Russia collected no roubles)�where it was successful that another ten cars were sent out (not another 10 zugen) these all being Ehrhardt. Given that only 39 Ehrhardt's were built and very few Daimlers one wonders how 10 zugen could have been equipped.

Germany had major problems in producing thin armour plate (the blockade depriving German industry of the necessary alloys, what was acquired being dedicated to special steels needed by the munitions industry ) and this severely limited what was possible with both armoured cars and tanks. The J class ground attack aircraft had priority for what thin armour plate was produced.

-- Edited by Centurion at 23:43, 2008-07-15

-- Edited by Centurion at 23:48, 2008-07-15

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

ken

you've probably seen the article on the main site; but just in case

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/mgm_a5p_kitreview.htm

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

PzKrMGAbt 1 did see (very) limited action at the Verdun front, but not the B�ssing, which arrived only when the unit was moving to the Vosges front.
In Roumania, the B�ssing was the first vehicle to get broken (which is the reason why no more B�ssings were produced).
It was refitted in Germany, receiving a 2 cm Becker gun, and in 1917 joined PzKrMGAbt 1 again.
In� mid-1917 it was planned to send the unit to� Palestine, for which theatre the B�ssing was not thought fit. It therefore was removed from� TOE.
In mid-1918, PzKrMGZug 2 requested it for patrol duty in and around Kiev, for which task it was supposed to be� ideal because of its imposing� size.

Centurion · Legend

Another view

-- Edited by Centurion at 13:54, 2008-07-16

eugene · Field Marshal

mz,

did the Bussing requested for Kiev, actually make its way there?

28juni14 · Hero

Of the 11 zugen, apparently only the 9th was not commited by war's end.�� As information, the Ehrhardt Radpz was not the principle vehicle arming these units.� Numbers of beute vehicles were utilized.� The 8th zug, for example was given 2 Fiats, and a�Peugeot,� while the 7th used Minervas.� The 2nd Zug, in addition to it's two Ehrhardts, picked up two Austins.� The 9th had 2 Garford-putilov, and two truck-mounted Ruski�FK02's.�� Indeed, the Ehrhardt vehicles seem to have been in short supply.

Concerning the Bussing, Kaufhold-Roll shows it to be with Zug-1 as late as Marz 1918, but two months later I see it was replaced by two Austins.

Ivan · Field Marshal

I think (I know?)... the parts of Buessing was rebuilt to armoured car of White Don-cosack army "Sokol" (Falcon), built in Rostov/Don 1919 by "Armatura" work on a chassis of FIAT 15 with armour-parts of old armoured cars....

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

The Ehrhardts formed the principal vehicles of Z�ge 2 to 6. Z�ge 7 to 11 were equipped with captured ACs.
It's interesting that from the huge number of ACs captured at the Russian front only few were utilised (only Z�ge 8 and 9, and 9 only became active in the Freikorps era).

Concerning the B�ssing: It was received by Zug 2 on August 5th, 1918. - But Zug 2 was moved to the western front on September 12th. On November 6th, Zug 2 was moved to Zossen near Berlin (intended for counter insurgent work).

Ivan · Field Marshal

PzKraftwagen-MG-Zug 7:

1x Minerva

PzKrW-MG-Zug 8:
�
1x FIAT (russ.)
1x Peugeot

Ab 11.11.1918:

2x FIAT (russ.)

PzKrW-MG-Zug 9:

2x Garford Poutiloff

PzKrW-MG-Z�ge 10�& 11:

Any 2x Lancia

taz · Lieutenant

B�ssing A5P Stra�enpanzerwagen

To compliment the Main site article here is a little more information translated from German.
Probably all known but nevertheless.

Production was stopped after the completion of three vehicles because it was deemed inferior to the Ehrhart E/ V-4.
All three were sent to the Eastern front as a�"Panzerkraftwagen MG-Zug 1" and were used with reasonable results.
It was four wheel drive and had redundant steering (front and back) to enable fast change of direction.
Even though it had 4WD the small wheels on this large vehicle limited it to road use only.

Crew: 9

Length: 9.5 m
Width: 2 m
Height: 3.5 m
Weight: 5.5 t

Armour: 6-9 mm
Armament: 3 x 7.92 MG's

Engine: 6 Cylinder Otto (Petrol)�66KW (90PS)
Road speed: 35/40 km/h
Range: 100 km

Regards Eddie.

Chassis showing the two steering wheels:

-- Edited by taz at 12:08, 2008-09-21

taz · Lieutenant

�And a Metal model, Krauthauser Military, B�ssing Panzerwagen 1:87 (HO) scale.

-- Edited by taz at 12:08, 2008-09-21

Ivan · Field Marshal

Colour of the H0 model ist not correct. The Buessing PzWagen has NO camouflage! Camouflage comming first 1919 (maybe aussum 1919) in this time was Buessing in Russia missing...

-- Edited by Ivan at 16:52, 2008-09-21

taz · Lieutenant

Ivan wrote:

Colour of the H0 model ist not correct. The Buessing PzWagen has NO camouflage! Camouflage comming first 1919 (maybe aussum 1919) in this time was Buessing in Russia missing...

-- Edited by Ivan at 16:52, 2008-09-21

Hello Ivan,

Yep, more for the model than the camo scheme. I haven't seen any indicaion of camo markings on any photos either.

Regards Eddie.

kapitan · Lieutenant

Hi !

No one has plans or colour profiles of this armored car?

Thanks!

-- Edited by kapitan on Wednesday 7th of October 2009 02:39:30 PM

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

Where did the Lancias (MG Zug 10 & 11) serve?

In Eastern front or somewhere else?

kieffer · Commander in Chief

The 4 German Lancia's were active on the Italian front, in 1918 on the western front and in Germany after the armistice as far as I know.

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Dear All!

some new informations regarding the A5P:

The B�ssing A5P was NOT lost in Russia! It saw action in the riots in Berlin.
The B�ssing A5P definetely HAD a camo scheme! (Latest in early 1919 it had a camo scheme)

I own a picture of the A5P used by a (Freikorps?) unit. It is a foto on a postcard, written by the driver to his aunt and uncle, the stamp on it shows clearly 1919.

I have also some indication that the B�ssing A5P was in Reichswehr use during the 1920s; maybe into the early 1930s.

Only a quick note regarding the Lacia: I own 1 picture of a Lancia IZ I (the 2 turret version!) in Freikorps use - seems to be 3. Marinebrigade.

Cheers
Chris

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Correct me please if I am wrong: the III.Marinebrigade, commanded by Von Loewenfeld was active in Kiel. I think the Lancia's were in Berlin, in Lankwitz with the Koka.

Kieffer

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Hi Kieffer!

Yes you are right.

But ...

a) my picture shows some Freikoprs soldiers. It is not very clear to see, but it seems some of them wear the colar badge for the III. Marinebrigade von L�wenfeld.
b) as far as I remember there is a picture in Ernst von Salomons book "Das Buch vom Deutschen Freikorpsk�mpfer" with a subtitle which says soemthing like "This is 3rd Marinebrigade at the last parade before beeing disssolved". Additional to that I have seen the same picture in a different size - it shows in the background an AC which may be a Lancia IZ I.

Of course it is possible that my picture shows two different units which were together in action: 1st is the AC unit and the 2nd is the III. Marinebrigade.

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Forgott to say: that B�ssing A5P in Berlin was namend "Grobetier".

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Thanks for your information Chris!
Wonder what happened with the Bussing later on, scrapped or may be destroyed during ww2? At the end almost everything was used in a hopeless effort to defend Berlin, even an Ehrhardt AC ended it's carreer literally before the Reichstag. So who knows where the Bussing found its end.
Ernst von Salomon: an interesting and somehow controversial character he was, involved in Freikorps activities, the assault on Walther Rathenau, putsches...very right-winged but a man too who saved his jewish lady friend by 'marriage'. I only read 'Die Kadetten', sehr zu empfehlen!

regards, Kieffer

Ivan · Field Marshal

Chris,

have you�original pictures of the Buessing in Germany, later, as 1917???
I need facts!

All armourec cars of 1. MG-Pzkw Abteilung was destroyed in Poti (today Georgia) 1919, only Ehrhardt/15 was 1918 caprured by Red Russians (later again captured by White Russians).

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

No, not destroyed in Poti, at least not all of them. Transported to Nikolayev, and there later�handed over to the Bolsheviks (two vehicles).
But the B�ssing was not part of PzKMGAbt. 1, it had been handed over to PzKMGZug 2 in�early 1918.

-- Edited by mad zeppelin on Sunday 18th of July 2010 08:58:35 AM

-- Edited by mad zeppelin on Sunday 18th of July 2010 08:59:12 AM

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

@Ivan: as I said, I own a picture of the A5P dated July 1919. The A5P is in camo scheme and namend "Grobetier".

Ivan · Field Marshal

mad zeppelin wrote:

No, not destroyed in Poti, at least not all of them. Transported to Nikolayev, and there later�handed over to the Bolsheviks (two vehicles).
But the B�ssing was not part of PzKMGAbt. 1, it had been handed over to PzKMGZug 2 in�early 1918.

Thanks!
Bolsheviks captured 1918 one Ehrhardt/17 by Kozinka (near Kharkov) from PzKw-MGZug 6 (you have see the picture)�.

Ehrhardt/15 was captured by Don-cosack Whity army from Whte army in september 1918 (near Varlamovka, Don-region).
Now, as my book is ready, I can this picture open make - "Colonel Bezmolitvenny" - be Don-Army wroren as armoured-tractor.

@ elbavaro
I�need this picture of Buessing in 1919, please confuse

-- Edited by Ivan on Monday 19th of July 2010 02:43:20 AM

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Well ... to be honest: I don't want to share that picture at the moment.

Albert · Brigadier

elbavaro wrote:
Well ... to be honest: I don't want to share that picture at the moment.

But can you confirm or deny that camouflage that can be seen on the box of the model from Krauthauser is correct?

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Well ... my picture shows the B�ssing A5P from the other side. But ... yes, it seems to be grey, brown and green. Maybe also small yellow/sand parts.

Albert · Brigadier

elbavaro wrote:
Well ... my picture shows the B�ssing A5P from the other side. But ... yes, it seems to be grey, brown and green. Maybe also small yellow/sand parts.

Thank you :) Are you planning to publish this photo in the future? Maybe in some article or book?

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Yes maybe. I am also thinking about to allow to publis it on Landships II in an article. But ... still thinking ... it is too rare, because it is known where and when.