As you may know I am carrying out research into the British tank (or tanks) named Britannia that toured North America between the eighteenth of October 1917 and the seventeenth of January 1919.
During this time Britannia was in New York on five occasions
18/10/1917 to 25/10/1917 fund raising and general public relations
24/11/1918 to 12/12/1917 Heroland exposition
1/3/1918 to 10/3/1918 (approx) recruiting campaign and PR
17/3/1918 to 25/3/1918 recruiting campaign
27/9/1918 to (unknown) fund raising and general public relations
All of these dates can be confirmed by a series of contemporary text sources combined with photos from other sources that bear out the descriptions given in the text. I have eliminated a number of photos that claim to show the tank in New York but turn out on examination of the background etc to be elsewhere (for example Chicago). I have however found one photo which was clearly taken in New York (unless some other US city has a Statue of Liberty) for which I can determine no date. If the photo was taken prior to 25/3/1918 or on an so far unrecorded visit after that date then it reinforces the probability of there having been two Britannias. If it were taken during the 27/9/1918 visit then it does not.(although there will still remain other evidence pointing to this). I have always assumed that it was taken during the Heroland exposition as it is shown doing one of the ' party tricks' carried out at other expositions (such as at San Francisco, Los Angeles and Chicago) balancing on top of a stack of lumber (other regular tricks were knocking down walls and crushing vehicles). There is a tree in the background with no foliage which would suggest winter. I enclose the photo any one have any useful info?
From the angle of the shadows cast by the tank and spectators, I would suspect that the photo would have been taken near midday on one of the longer days of the year (assuming a location in the northern U.S.) The attire of the spectators would also seem to be appropriate for this time of year. Centurion, is it your impression that the object seen on the left upper margin of the photo is a rear view of the right side of the Statue of Liberty? If so, I would echo Pete's comment on the GWF that such a perspective would only be obtainable on Ellis Island, or more likely, from a boat in the northern reaches of New York Bay.
As you will see from the GWF postings I've identified the location as probably Red Hook Park where this view of the statue is available. There was a baseball stadium there which is now a football ground. I think any idea of a replica S of L in somewhat fanciful to put it mildly. However its the date I'm looking for.
If the longest day of the year why has the tree no leaves?
The trees in the upper left portion of the photo appear to be in leaf - while the resolution in the photo is not the best, to my eye the limbs do not look bare. Centurion, do you have any other references which establish this location as Red Hook Park? I would agree that the Red Hook area of Brooklyn is the only place in the five boroughs where a "full frontal" view of the Statue of Liberty can be obtained. However, if the object in the photo is the Statue of Liberty, the view would seem to be of the rear of the Statue, looking east from the area south of Jersey City, or Newark. I've attached a view of the Statue taken from the New Jersey Turnpike which will be familiar to fans of HBO's "The Sopranos".
how about this odd one from the Pathe site, which seems to describe a MkV being shipped to Cornell University in the USA as a war memorial. Does anyone know anything about this tank? It does not seem to have survived and postings on Missing Lynx in past years have yielded no replies, so remains a big mystery ever since I found it on the Pathe site in 2005!
The tank was donated by the War Office in Britain at the request of a Cornell allumni and was given the name Victory. I have a photo of it on a railway wagon at Ithica en route to the university. There was an article about it in one of the Alumni magazines at the time this is on the Internet. When I can dig it out I'll post the link (I'm in the midst of transfering data from a crippled PC to a new one, this has been hampered by a non working ethernet, acorrupted DVD back up disc and a failed memory stick! But I'll get there). The tank was there about ten years before being scrapped. The French government shipped a St Chamond to the Vassar womens college at about the sme time as Victory was shipped. It too was scrapped after about ten years.
Hi there, I have been waiting to hear about that tank for 3 years and thank you for settling the mystery for once and for all. Do you know who (which Btn RTC)used the tank in question on active duty?
Do you know who (which Btn RTC)used the tank in question on active duty?
No, I think that its serial number may be post war - maybe Gwyn can help. Don't forget that over 200 Mk Vs went straight into training duties and it could well be one of these.
Just to complete the record on British tanks in the USA. A Mk V was shipped to America in mid 1918 to allow the military to become familiar with the improvements incorporated in this model and to provide some training. Just after the War some 12 Mk IVs were shipped to America at the Federal government's request. Why and what they were used for remains a mystery (why not the later MK Vs for example?) Its more than likely the Mk IV on display at Aberdeen was one of these.
For some reason post war (I'm not sure exactly when) it seems a "T" was added as a prefix to wartime serial numbers. Assuming I'm right in this, and the tank presented to Cornell was 9128, it served with 8th Battalion. The earliest reference I have of it is 20 June 1918 and the latest (except for its export) is 29 September 1918.
I didn't know about the Mark V exported to the USA and I'd like to hear more of that. Also exported were two Mark V* Males and three Mark V* Females. And of course the Medium A that's now rusting away shamefully near to the Mark IV in Maryland must have got there somehow.
As to the question of why Mark IVs were supplied to the USA, they were for training. I can't find the relevant notes at the moment (GRRRR!!!!) but from memory the Americans did ask for Mark Vs, but the British Govt felt these were more needed in France than the States. I can understand their point of view.
According to David Fletcher who supplied me with the information these were AFTER the end of the war. US heavy tank training was done at Wool with a special cadre of American instructors from mid 1918.
I didn't know about the Mark V exported to the USA and I'd like to hear more of that. Also exported were two Mark V* Males and three Mark V* Females. And of course the Medium A that's now rusting away shamefully near to the Mark IV in Maryland must have got there somehow.
The Mk V arrived in the US on the 22nd June 1918 on the deck of a British liner and under the charge of Captain W. G. Lush United States Army and a crew of 12 American soldiers.
I understand that at least one Mk V* was brought back by the 301st at the end of the war. Reputedly this is the one now at Fort Knox having been used as a memorial or gate guardian (possibly both). The serial number painted on it at the moment is not its own. This had been obliterated by the time it arrived at the museum and as the tank had been partually gutted there was no plate inside. Its possible that the 301 brought all its remaining MkV*s home.
The Mark IVs left Newbury for the States on 5 November 1918. They would have got there after the end of the war, but the decision to send Mark IVs rather than Vs was taken during wartime.
The Mark IVs left Newbury for the States on 5 November 1918. They would have got there after the end of the war, but the decision to send Mark IVs rather than Vs was taken during wartime.
Thanks for the info on the Mark V.
Gwyn
Thanks - I wonder just how they thought they could be used? There would be nobody in the US trained to drive a Mk IV (US heavy tank training was all on Mk Vs)
There is of course at least one (possibly two) tank(s) whose fate is unknown - Britannia. There is an eyewitness report of a Britannia at Camp Polk in January 1919. It was probably in company with some other British tanks -male for a row of tanks is metioned "Some carried two cannon, six-pounders, that is firing a shell of that weight, while the little fellows had only one gun." Medium tanks are also mentioned (that Medium A?)
Just an update. The 301st did bring some of its tanks back and several Mk V* and Mk V tanks were at Camp Meade in 1919 - this is almost certainly the source of the Mk V* at Fort Knox which confirms that there is a very good chance that this tank saw action.
Thanks for that. As usual it answers one question and raises another! It seems that having Britannia written on the front plate did not always mean that the sides were camouflaged. I've picked up some more date info on various visits and there do appear to be some unexplained overlaps.
