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Post Info TOPIC: AC's in Ukranian Insurgent Army service.
Woof Woof


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AC's in Ukranian Insurgent Army service.
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Dear forumites
This is not an easy one,but I'm looking for any info or pictures on the use of AC's by Makhno's Insurgent army(anarchist forces) during the Russian civil war.
Wikipedia mentions 4 captured and an armored train.
The latest book by Osprey in their essential history series mentions AC's of belgian origin captured from the Whites.
Any further information would be much appreciated.

Cheers to all.



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Ivan


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Here... Austin 3rd
I think it is ukrainian nacinalists of Petlyura, or?

Machno AC I have not see.

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cdr


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According to Belgian sources , the Russian armoured cars in the ACM corps were taken by Rada forces. The Belgian armoured cars were destroyed. It is possible (altough I have seen any evidence) that some were restored from the spare pieces.

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Woof Woof


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Thanks guys for responding to this thread.
Great pictures Ivan, never seen them before.It seems that you are the main source and expert in the field of AC's in Russian service,so probably you might have read in a russian publication somewhere about the insurgents and their armored cars,or heard?
Quoteing D.Bullock from his exellent book on the Russian Civil War 1918-22 by Osprey
"...the insurgents had many colourful characters....(amongst them) Roger 'the Frenchman' who commanded a squadron of Belgian armoured cars-given to Russia in WWI-against Denikin in spring 1919.

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Ivan


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Unfortunately in Russian books and at Russian forums still the theme of an armour of Machno did not meet anywhere, probably nobody searched in detail. I live in Germany, I speak Russian, but to archive in Moscow me is far. If there will be time, I will bring up this question at Russian forum of Great war (http://www.1914.borda.ru/), there many good historians.

P.S. I have in my archive more as 1000 photos of russian armoured cars in service in Russian Imperial army, Belgian and British trooops in Russia, Reds, Whites, Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian, Lituanian and Georgian nazis, Japans and americans ocupants in Siberia, German Imperial army, KuK army, Baltic Freikorps and Landswehr, German spartacists and gouverments troops, Finland, Poland...
Have also photos of German armoured cars, there was captured from Red army in the Ukraine.

-- Edited by Ivan at 03:10, 2009-01-30

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Woof Woof


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G'day to all.
Once again Ivan, thanks for your concern,maybe we let this thread rest on the case and activate it again if more info arrives from Russia.
Now the use of AC's by german Spartacist troops is a surprise to me!! Any photo?

Cheers.

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elbavaro


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Regarding "Did Red Germans use AC's?"

How about this one?

Btw: it is one of the most well known pictures in Germany regarding the after wqar riots in Berlin. The picture was taken in the palace of Berlin.

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oirob


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As far as I know, AC's, in 1918/1919 insurgent germany, were mainly used by the Freikorps.
But there is a picture from the "Berliner Schloß", which was occupied by the revolutionary "Marine Division" (red insurgent sailors), that shows an armoured car.

177_Revolutionstage_in_Berlin[1].jpg


In terms of Machno, there seems to be a russian TV-series about his life
were appear also armoured cars, I think.
But I'm afraid this is a very low buget produktion, so this is no good reference.

cheers
Oirob



-- Edited by oirob at 11:14, 2009-01-30

-- Edited by oirob at 11:17, 2009-01-30

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elbavaro


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Great! This is the next picture in the serial. Look - nearly the same people are seen on the picture and also the AC is still at the same place.

I love such serials. ;o)

Chris

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oirob


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yes, this is an interesting theme as well.
Here in Berlin, where I live, we have the picture archive of the "Preußischer Kulturbesitz".

http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/index.php?LANGUAGE=DE_DE
(search for "november 1918")

They hold a lot of negatives of the 1918/1919 fightings in Berlin.
I will soon make an appointment to search for some interesting material there.
May be I'll start a new threat then,so as not to bother the Makhnovshchina.wink

-- Edited by oirob at 13:58, 2009-01-30

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Ivan


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This is built in Russia by Izhorsky work Pierce-Arrow, only two this armoured trucks built for Russian marine minesterium (for "Fort Peter the Great" in Reval). One was by German-russian Freikorps anno 1919 in Riga ("Titanic", later latvian "Viesturas"), second go to Berlin. I have there postcards in Original. First postcard left Armstrong-Whitworth-FIAT (ex-Russian).

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Woof Woof


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Well, after a pleasent and very educating break from our main subject,time to get back.
After brousing on a few threads and some manic surfing I just managed to gather the following: Since the belgians operated around 12 AC's in the southwestern sector(one was captured by the germans and used in the Berlin uprising), after the belgians departed their AC's where left under White control (probably).They where either Mors-Minerva or Peaugeot.
According to Bullock 4 were captured by N.Makhno's forces and used against Denikin's Whites
(or any other combatants confronting Makhno).
Until someone sheds some more light, this is just my two bits of research.

Cheers until later.

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Ivan


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You will not find these data anywhere. In Russia on White army a little that remains (in the USSR about it probably many archives of the Whites were silent also have destroyed), and on Greens ("gangsters") in general no archives are present. I looked through everything in Russian and the Ukrainian Internet that is connected with a name of Machno, never did not see armour cars.

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Woof Woof


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Thanks again for your posts.
So, I will take for granted info that has been posted so far on the net, and all that has been published.I know that information on the Makhnovishna is fragmentary.
The author of the Osprey book made an on the spot research, visiting the historical museum of Gulye-Polye (Makhno's headquarters during the war).
After all, maybe those AC's were short-lived, and of mixed origin(no photo's,no documents).
So it goes.

All the best.

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gemsco


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Belgian Division of Armoured Cars in Russia 1915-17
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Ivan,

Belgian troops came with Mors and Peugeot armoured cars. They latter received one Renault-Mgebrow ( refused) and one FIAT.

Would you have pics of Mors captured by the German ?

Regards

Gemsco

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Ivan


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AC's in Ukranian Insurgent Army service.
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gemsco wrote:

Ivan,

Belgian troops came with Mors and Peugeot armoured cars. They latter received one Renault-Mgebrow ( refused) and one FIAT.

Would you have pics of Mors captured by the German ?

Regards

Gemsco


Hi Gemsco,

I think, the Germans have captured ONLY ONE belgian armoured car in Russia - this Peugeot (later "Raudi") by Swistelniki. So wroten all russian documents. Others belgian captured cars Minerva was all in West-front.

Belgian Ischorsky-Renault armoured car (built in Russia by Ischorsky work by project of Stabs-Hauptmann of Military automobile-school Wladimir Mgebroff on a Renault chassis).
Here is Belgian Armstrong-Whiteworth-FIAT (Fiat/15). Here is he pictures of belgian Renault and Fiat.
Belgians  recived 1917 also one chassis FIAT 55 (American Fiat) for repair old armoured car.

Regards, Ivan (st-petersburger smile)


-- Edited by Ivan at 03:33, 2009-02-13

-- Edited by Ivan at 03:34, 2009-02-13

-- Edited by Ivan at 03:38, 2009-02-13

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cdr


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gemsco

The Belgian mors captured by the Germans is visible on the Minerva thread.

A recent belgian book " reizigers in de grote oorlog" gives the following information on the belgian cars "Februari 1918 Svjatoshin barracks Kiev tyres slashed, engine blocks exploded, radiators filled with water, armour exploded, The reamains of the car were handed over to commisar Kotsubinski One car put on train" The book also shows a foto of a wrecked armoured car in Kiev

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