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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Individual weapons & tactics -> British headdress
Post Info TOPIC: British headdress
Paul Bonnett


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British headdress
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Hi, Can anyone tell me the type of headwear worn by British troops, during the 1915-16 period, while carrying out raiding patrols on enemy trenches ?
Paul

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James H


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Paul, I have a pic of a raiding party of the King's (Liverpool) Regt. in 1915. About 40 men in total.

All are wearing balaclavas or "cap comforters" (apart from one man wearing a Pickelhaube).

(Come to think of it - some things haven't changed in Liverpool)

Several are wearing sweaters or cardigans over or instead of tunics.

J

-- Edited by James H at 11:24, 2009-02-12

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Paul Bonnett


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Hi James,
 Many Thanks for the info. I would take it that removal of I.D marks would also be the norm on these raids,like shoulder titles etc
Paul

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James H


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I've had the pic under a magnifying glass and can't make out any identification, but it's not clear enough to say that they have definitely been removed.

There are two officers in the pic with badges (harps - this battalion was the Liverpool Irish) but they are in collar-and-tie so it doesn't look as if they took part in the raid, only the photograph afterwards.

Will keep looking.

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philthydirtyanimal


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At the risk of revealing some of my great ignorance, but because I am genuinely interested in this, here are my thoughts.

When I watch 'Finding The Fallen' or 'Trench Detectives' and such, I don't see the archaeologists finding dog tags, I see them looking at, maybe, a pocket watch or wrist watch with some initials, or some officer's brass button, or even the length of a femur. I've never seen them finding ID tags, now I come to think of it.

So, out of curiosity, what ID did British and Dominion soldiers have on them, in the normal course of things? I thought that 'dog tags' were an American invention, and I don't know when from either. So, I am wondering if the British and Dominion forces would have had any ID anyway, except for their pay book, personal letters, last will etc.

Distinguishing unit markings (shoulder flashes, cap badges etc) would not have been sewn on to pullovers (jerseys, jumpers, cardigans) or balaclavas etc, so maybe they were not trying to obscure their identity, it just happened as a 'side effect'.

And something else I thought of; these trench raids were not covert operations, they were legitimate attacks, albeit with an attempt at stealthiness. So there would be no cause to hide ID except to subdue noise, shine, etc.

I have two Osprey books that relate, Trench Warfare 1 and 2, and they give me the impression that unit markings and ID were not deliberately concealed, they were just 'lost' because of the improvised nature of the clothing.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/reader/1841761974/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/reader/1841761982/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link


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Rob


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The British did have ID discs, however you don't usually find them anymore because the issued ones were a sort of hard fibre

http://www.timstags.com/shop/images/ww2%20British.jpg (from IIRC 1916 onwards they were the same as the standard WW2 ones, but the information printed was slightly different). Before 1916, I believe it was just a single tag, and before that, metal ones. You also sometimes see private purchase metal tags worn on the wrist. I have examples of both the private purchase metal tags and the green and red fibre discs

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philthydirtyanimal


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Thanks, Rob. I am surprised I didn't know that (although, maybe I shouldn't be!)

I don't think I've ever seen them. And I've been in quite a few museums. But then again, I'm more ineterested in AFVs, so maybe I just haven't noticed them.

Nice to see you back in this forum again.

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Rob


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Cheers mate, been very busy with exams etc but hopefully settled now for a while. I haven't seen many in museums myself, any that are are very small exhibits so easily unrecognised

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Paul Bonnett


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PDA,
"And something else I thought of; these trench raids were not covert operations, they were legitimate attacks, albeit with an attempt at stealthiness. So there would be no cause to hide ID except to subdue noise, shine, etc."

It may be something to do with being ex-military myselfyawn but I thought part of the reason for raiding was to find out as much as possible about your enemy and to avoid capture yourself. This means removal of identifying (unit) marks so as to deny this info to your enemy if caught. Or am I being to modern in my thinking on this.
Paul

-- Edited by Paul Bonnett at 21:20, 2009-02-15

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Rob


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They did definitely remove insignia and ID discs before taking part in a trench raid, they used other ways of having identification on you in case you died or went missing (I think it was a numbered tag, although i'm sure all sorts of different variations of identification were used)

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philthydirtyanimal


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Well, that's interesting!

I have seen documentaries where they say that the 'higher-ups' did not want another outbreak of peace, or 'live and let live', like the first Christmas. So they demanded that raids be carried out, to keep the men fighting. Capture a couple of prisoners, snip off some barbed wire, that sort of thing.

I thought they wore the woolly pully, boot polish face, etc so that they could make it to the enemy trenches without raising the alarm, and then use the knuckle dusters, cudgels, knives etc so they didn't alert any other sections of the enemy trench. Both actions would increase the raiders' chance of survival.

But, so I've heard, these raids were known to be near-suicidal, with slim chance of surviving.

Maybe both types happened? Or maybe I'm confusing a lot of incidents into one?

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James H


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Further reading on the King's Regt party reveals that some are wearing service caps back-to-front, which strikes me as more comedic than warlike, but who am I to say?

Trench raids served a number of purposes, including the mapping of enemy trenches, taking of prisoners for interrogation, seizing maps and documents, and wearing down enemy morale. It's also true to say that it was done to maintain levels of aggression, but I read somewhere that certain regiments were sent on raids more than others. It seems that there was a perception at Staff level that some regts had a greater tradition of aggression and achievement, and the burden fell disproportionately on these.

Parties were supposed to bring back a bit of barbed wire to prove that they had carried out the raid, but there is a tale of a party that brought back a huge roll of German wire, hid it, and kept cutting a bit off every time they didn't fancy going on a raid.

An account from the German side says that parties of Stosstruppen would appear at the Front, carry out a raid, and then return to their base. This was unpopular amongst the line troops, because a retaliatory barrage would often follow.

On the subject of badges and other identifying insignia, I've just read that they were frequently absent because of shortage of supply and because they were often exchanged as souvenirs. It does seem reasonable, though, to assume that badges would be deliberately removed by raiding parties. Even if the enemy already had a good idea of which units they were facing, it wouldn't do any harm to make things a little bit harder for them.

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philthydirtyanimal


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I love learning stuff!

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James H


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Well in that case, cop for this. I've just astonished myself. It concerns the Curious Case of the Stick Grenade.

A little project that I undertook (with which PDA and ironsides might be familiar) concerned the dates of appearance of certain weapons and kit during the War.

The stick grenade, as a bit of googling will reveal, is almost universally considered a German weapon. It seems to be impossible to use the words 'stick' and 'grenade' without putting 'German' in front of them. It is seen as quintessentially German, along with the Pickelhaube, Stahlhelm, and Feldmuetze.

Imagine my surprise on learning of the existence of British types of stick grenade before the outbreak and of their use in 1914. The Russians had stick grenades in 1912. http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/gas/index.html

Most recently, while looking into French kit, I've noticed that a pic I've had for ages of a French raiding party shows two of them festooned with stick grenades of a type that is clearly not German. This turns out to be the Modele 1913, and was in use well into the War.

The Steilgranate is officially the M1915. Therefore, contrary to what I had previously understood, it seems that the Germans were the last European army to adopt this item with which they are forever associated.

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Paul Bonnett


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As mentioned, a bit of googling came up with this interesting page
http://wapedia.mobi/en/hand_grenade
Paul

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James H


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Paul, my PC won't open that site. What is it?

J

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Paul Bonnett


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I found it on a google listing but having looked again it is the wap version of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_grenade
Paul

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James H


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Thanks, Paul. Got it now.

Since this is now becoming grenade-oriented, I shall move it to the correct department.

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