Landships II

The book 'Panzerwaffe' volume one (editor: John Prigent / co-writer Rainer Strasheim) by Ian Allen Publishing, 2007, quotes that the two Hedi's were indeed on the Überlandwagen chassis. They were intended to be used as communication / command vehicles, though not necessarily in combination with other tanks. Part of the gun mounts weren't gun mounts at all, but were signalling lamp mounts. The Oberleutnant Hans von Skopnik is said to have seized the two uncompleted vehicles in november 1918, and organised their completion at a company called Steffens & Noelle's.
Later photo's show two different types of markings (both are by the way included in the Retrokit model) for apparantly the same vehicle featuring two domes on the roof at the driver's position. The one photo showing both vehicles, shows the second vehicle with only one such dome. Whatever has become of that one isn't known, as there are no known photo's or records of it.

all the best,
Michel.

Well ... philtydirtyanimal ...

all these things came already up my mind a few years ago. And then I realised that these are neither the right questions nor the realy important ones.

Don't get me wrong - it is an interesting question how it happend, how they did it. Because obviously they did it.

The realy interesting questions are:
LKs: Looking at the time which passed during the more than one time sales to Sweden and Hungary: How many did they realy produce? How many were they able to sell? Did they sell to others coutries too?

Hedis: Comparing the completed tanks to the design of the A7V communication / command tank: does not fit - they drawing I hvae seen are totaly different. So what were they realy designed / made for? Also the tanks do not look like improvised tanks. How many were realy built? Comparing the known fotos of them; comparing the environments in which they were fotographed: a strange "feeling" I realy can't explain, comes up and tells me there must be more than 2 tanks. But much more important: where have they gone?

A7V "Imperator": An A7V tank in KoKampf-service! Aren't the fates of all (!) A7Vs well known? Where does this tank come from? Were realy only 20 A7Vs built? If yes, then maybe the French Army lied due to the tanks they captured in Wiesbaden, but why? If there numbers of captured tanks are true, what tanks did they realy count? Remember: KoKampf didn't exist before early 1919. Also I read and learned that all A7Vs with buck mounted guns later became changed to socket mounted guns. Again the question: where did Imperator came from? Where did he go? Are there pictures of his scraping?

Facing the facts: Minimum 2 Hedis are fact + minimum 1 "Imperator" = smallest 3 tanks of which we don't know realy where they came from and what was their fate.

And last but not least: Are these 3 tanks the beginning of rumors about Polish A7Vs? If yes, where have they gone? Were they fighting in the Polish-Russian war? Maybe the Reds captured some?

Well ... I don't have any evidences, but these are the questions crossing my mind, facing the facts.

Regards
Chris

-- Edited by elbavaro on Monday 16th of March 2009 12:11:37 AM

-- Edited by elbavaro on Monday 16th of March 2009 09:43:16 AM

Well ... there was not much occupied after WW1. It was totaly different to 1945 when Germany was fragmented into 4 occupied zones and all German soldiers were in POW camps.

1918 there was only some area on the right side of the Rhine occupied by the French (like Wiesbaden) and by British (like Cologne). And of course France confiscated Elsaß (Alsace) and Lothringen (Lorraine).

In the East of Germany it was also different, as Poland confiscated several areas and wanted more and more land. This was the reason of founding the "Grenzschutz Ost" (boarder defense east). Some British and other forces were sent to Schlesien (Silesia) for watching the votes about Silesia.

No other occupation. No Allied Military Government was ruling Germany. Of course the Allied Controll Comission was able to go everywhere and controll or search everything which was military- or police-related, but this was no occupation like 1945.

In the past I have read some books about different military units and most of them also told their history; also the inter-war-era. It was often told "They hided everything. Everybody knew what to do when members of the Allied Controll Comission reached the baracks gates. Also some of them understood very well that Germany wanted to keep some power for self-defense.". So as a German it is totaly clear to me how it worked.

Grenzschutz Ost:

9th January 1919:
Appeal of the German Government to officers and NCOs of the former Imperial Army to build voluntary units - Freikorps - for the eastern boarder protection.

21st January 1919:
OHL (Oberste Heeresleitung = Army High Command) is redeployed to the city of Kolberg (yes, famous Kolbererg of 1806 and 1945). Commander is Fíeldmarshal Hindenburg.


Of course the redeployment of the OHL it does not mean that also all units were sent to the eastern boarder. Sure, sometimes complete units trespassed from of the former army to the Freikorps and were ready to fight. But most of the units had to be founded, had to recruit volunteers, organize equipment and weapons, build the units, train them ready to fight and send them to the East. This all takes time and I remember having seen a newspaper announce "Looking for drivers for the Grenzschutz Ost" on 23rd February 1919.

-- Edited by elbavaro on Tuesday 17th of March 2009 12:58:38 AM

This is becoming extremely interesting..

I have read that the first A7V was produced by Daimler (mechanics), Steffens (chassis) and Nölle (armour). On the other hand, M Hundleby says that Steffens and Nölle was one company in 1917. Perhaps it was, but with separate divisions.

MH seems to have not known about Hedi's twin at the time of writing his book. But he does say that Hedi was a Geländewagen of the Tank Training Detachment "fitted with surplus armour plates, possibly from 542 A7V-U". Earlier, though, he says that Hedi might have been based on the old 524 A7V-U chassis or on an ordinary carrier, and that the body was "probably" mild steel.

He then says that "the tank" (which one?) was required to be delivered to the Allied Control Commission in July 1919, "but was afterwards scrapped, of which there is photographic evidence".

Returning to the LK, I find it surprising that the Hungarian and Swedish transactions were allowed to take place. One assumes that the Commission was very keen on anything involving armoured vehicles, but, as Chris says, they must have been comprehensively duped.

-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 17th of March 2009 11:16:30 AM

That's all very helpful, everyone.

Using this information puts a possible 'time bracket' on the Hedi sightings; Oberleutnant Hans von Skopnik commandeers the chassis in November 1918, 'Grenzschutz Ost' (standing beside both Hedis) possibly January 1919 but probably February 1919, 'KoKampf' (slogans on Hedi in Berlin) is March 1919, and a possible scrapping date of after July 1919.

The Hundleby 'evidence' I find confusing. I think possibly some meaning has been lost in translation. For example, if he says that a chassis came from the A7V-U and then there are photos of the tank being scrapped, does that mean photos of the A7V-U being scrapped or the Hedi being scrapped?

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Tuesday 17th of March 2009 02:24:24 PM

Coming back on the time spreads:

I guess everyone in this forum knows the picture of a Freikorps Whippet with the number 53 in front f Berlin Hotel Eden. It is said that it is the same day when the picture was taken with "Hedi" number 54 (I guess everyone know too). You can see both in the book of Max Hundleby & Rainer Strasheim on page 192.

This was on 19th January 1919.

A later picture of Hedi (page 193) it is said March 1919 and shows allready the KoKampf sign

I've got a headache.

When unravelling a ball of twine, it is best to do it one knot at a time!

Can we 'spin off' discussion of the LK tanks to this thread
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=17150538

and discussion of A7V Imperator to this thread
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=10794666

and Polish A7Vs to this thread
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=3879413
(although the photos in that thread are missing, they can be found in this one
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=7237019)


So, is it a fairly plausible time line? And, Chris, I agree with you, the Hedi tanks do not look improvised. They look well designed, I'd say, better than the A7V.

And whilst I agree that the 'armour plate' was probably just mild steel, did Steffens and Nölle have the capability of making armour plate? They had some two to three months to make these Hedis.

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Tuesday 17th of March 2009 09:00:00 PM

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Wednesday 18th of March 2009 12:57:15 AM

elbavaro, we can discuss whate'er you choose, where'er; all comment is welcome!

For me though, Imperator is just an A7V that turned up where it shouldnt have been at a time when it shouldnt have.

As for the Polish A7V story, my feeling is that the photographs in this thread http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=7237019
could account for its origins. Especially when you remember that at that time journalists called any armoured vehicle a 'tank'. Just look at that first photo that Mark Hansen posted, 'wozniak-walerus'.

But the Hedi tanks! A brand new tank produced when (allegedly) Germany didnt have the resources and was in turmoil. And there is the new photo recently sold on ebay, and Retrokits' kit with Black Lion's decals!

 

elbavaro wrote:

---

@Ivan: just to provoke a little: do you have photographical evidence of NO A7Vs in Poland and NO capture of them by Russian forces?

---

I have NO photos  I have the complett liste of all tanks in Russia 1919-1925 from Moscow archiv RGVIA - only Renaults was captured in Polish war!

 

There's a lot going on now.

I suggested in 2005, when I was young and naive, that the Polish A7V rumour might have been connected with the pic of the Erhardt. At first glance, the two could be confused in the pic below.

Anyway, I've looked at the pics of Hedi in MH's book, and they're puzzling. There's a pic of her in Leipzig, with the name in very neat letters on the right hand side of the bow at about head height.and very professional-looking skull and crossbones on the bow and r/h side. It's dated May 18th, 1919. Any other markings are hidden by the crew members surrounding the vehicle.

Another pic shows her allegedly in Berlin in January 1919, with completely different markings; the number 54 on either side of the bow, a much bigger and clumsier death's head on the side, and the Regierungstreue motto painted on the bow, apparently with a yardbrush.

It could be that they just had a proper paint job done as they became more organised.

As regards Imperator, I can't see anything in the photograph that establishes definitely that it is post-War. I still think all 20 are accounted for, but am willing to learn.

James, I'm just going to link pictures to your last posting:

A "pic shows her allegedly in Berlin in January 1919, with... the number 54 on either side of the bow, a much bigger and clumsier death's head on the side, and the Regierungstreue motto painted on the bow, apparently with a yardbrush.":
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/hedi1.JPG
and (maybe?)
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/hedi4.JPG

"There's a pic of her in Leipzig, with the name in very neat letters on the right hand side of the bow at about head height.and very professional-looking skull and crossbones on the bow and r/h side. It's dated May 18th, 1919. Any other markings are hidden by the crew members surrounding the vehicle.":
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/hedi3.JPG

In that last photo, that Max Hundleby dates as 18th May 1919, the markings appear to be the same as:
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/jpegs_new/number_22/hedi_new.jpg
which has the word 'Leipzig' written on a couple of waggons in the background.

EDIT: well, the linking doesnt work! "Remote Linking Forbidden". I guess the Landships website is too remote from the Landships forum on the Landships website. The pictures I tried to link to can be found in the Hedi article in the German section of the Tank section (groan), and the last and latest picture can be found in the Hobby News & Rumours section. Or, you can copy and paste the link into the address bar and hit 'Go'!



-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Wednesday 18th of March 2009 03:42:34 PM

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Wednesday 18th of March 2009 04:03:22 PM

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Wednesday 18th of March 2009 04:04:41 PM

Is it possible for you to post those 'other photos' elbavaro? Or maybe give a book reference so I can look them up in my local public library? (I cant afford $250 for Hundleby's A7V & Beutepanzer book)

philthydirtyanimal wrote:

---

Is it possible for you to post those 'other photos' elbavaro? Or maybe give a book reference so I can look them up in my local public library? (I cant afford $250 for Hundleby's A7V & Beutepanzer book)

---

 Well .... To be honest: due to German law regarding copyright violation I am not willing to scan and post them.

But 1 picture is also shown in the book "Sturmpanzerwagen A7V" at page 274.

elbavaro, the book "Sturmpanzerwagen A7V", is that the one by Heinrich Walle?

and I apologise for not understanding completely your previous posting.

We have got two topics running in parallel here.

The pics of Hedi can be seen together on this German site: http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=4170 Max H claims that a train was assigned to take

Chris's English is (despite his modesty) better than my German, but if I understand this correctly, they are implying that the photo of the 2 Hedis together is a fake, although it certainly doesn't look like one. Then again, they seem to believe the story of the Polish A7Vs, so I think the site needs to be treated with some caution.

Imperator would seem to be a genuine A7V in Kokampf service. The position of its name in the photo implies that it was painted over its original name, which we don't as yet know. Was it a wartime vehicle that escaped scrapping (which would mean that the records are wrong) or a production vehicle that had somehow gone unnoticed and went straight from the factory to Kokampf/Freikorps? Does anyone recognise where the photo was taken? A barracks, possibly?

What now enters the fray is a suggestion by Rainer S that Kokampf had some LKIIs! http://www.network54.com/Forum/282066/message/1109015763/One+of+my+favourite+theories

Gosh! That person to whom Rainer Strasheim is replying seems like a very intelligent gentleman.

I dont think that Mario Doherr's photo is a fake. And it has been examined by Rainer Strasheim. I notice that on the Hedi at the back, one of the drivers cupolas is folded forward and rests on the roof vent. This is also to be seen in one of the other photos of Hedi. So, I think the cupolas were hinged at their front edge. I guess everybody else had already figured that out, right!?

The two Hedis together photo could have been taken before any markings were applied. Meaning just two Hedis, not four. Just another thought that occurs to my increasingly senile brain.

I believe that the drivers cupolas are hinged backwards. That means that the picture of the two Hedis shows their back.

I know of 11 Hedi pictures in total (today). Especially the ones with the "No 54" I have studied in detail. The ones with the number 54 and this special kind of free hand paintings have one advantage for us to watch carefully: because every painting, every skull, ervery letter is totaly unique.

What I am trying to say is: you can cleary identify left and right side, front and rear. For example: lets say the soldiers painted front and rear with the same writing and the same number, then there must be clearly visible differences.

The sides are also clearly different: the big skulls themself are very similar, but at one side the bones are crossed below ths skull (skull an bones don't touch) and at the other side a little bit behind the skull (skull touches bones an lays over them).

Coming back to front and rear: All pictures of Hedi (with number 54) I have seen, are showing the same side. The front side. Why do I think it is the front side?

a) some of the "No 54" pictures are showing open doors. Like the original A7V, all (!) doors are opened into front direction (because you can use them as a shield against bullets coming from front)
b) some pictures shows "No 54" in "move". When you look at the people walking beside the tank: you never feel them walking away from the tank; allways walking with him.
c) some pictures shows "No 54" at "rest" - usually the soldiers are taking pictures showing them in front of the tank not in front of his back.
d) same as c) when they do appeal (appologies: I don't know if this word is used in British military but in German it is) cars or tank show their front to the commanding officer not their back, like the soldiers are looking to theier officer in front of them (btw: you can see this also at Hedi)
e) when you can see it in "No 54" pictures: drivers cupolas are folded backwards. If cupolas are in use-position, then you never see their hinges.

Add all this and then again have a look at the picture with the two Hedis: where are the hinges? in wich direction do the doors open? It must show the rear sides.

Btw: "Hedi" has been painted in front and back the same way! ;o)


If someone now has a detailed look at "No 54" pictures: I have two riddles for you.
1. When you watch Hedi from the side: are the cuppolas exactly in the center or not?
2. Are the machine gun mountings all the same?
Hint: Retrokits model is showing it correctly!

Cheers
Chris

-- Edited by elbavaro on Thursday 19th of March 2009 07:51:19 PM