Landships II

Hi, Gregorus. That is a very interesting find. Curiously enough, I was thinking about the subject a couple of days ago while reading about Mr. Simms's and Colonel Davidson's first attempts at armed motor vehicles in 1898/9. They both produced improved versions in 1902, about the time of the end of the South African War, and I did wonder if any thought had been given to developing something for use in that war and how effective such vehicles might have been. The answers to those questions, acording to the newspaper articles, seem to be a) yes and b) not very.

Understandably so; the engines were very low-powered, and one suspects that carrying armour plate would have been beyond them. Davidson's steam-powered car of 1902 might have stood more of a chance but, as the articles point out, motor cars would probably have found it difficult to compete with Boer horses at the time.
Ellis & Bishop point out that Davidson's 4-wheeled version of 1900 aroused quite some interest in the U.S. Army, and in 1903 an American General suggested that cavalry corps might be equipped with such cars for various purposes including reconnaissance. In Britain in 1905 the War Office mounted a Maxim on a saloon car and several more were similarly modified "with a view to using them for police work in the colonies." Moreover, the British Admiralty considered placing some on ships for the use of naval landing parties.

It's probable that there would have been some circumstances in South Africa in which MG carriers would have been useful. It would be interesting to discover more about these experiments.

http://steamtraction.farmcollector.com/Miscellaneous/The-First-Armored-Motorized-Military-Vehicle.aspx

http://15mmvsf.bagofmice.com/vsf/insper.html

http://www.tractortestfriends.com/newsletters/34.pdf

and

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9804E3DA1539E433A25755C0A9649C946196D6CF

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=78602

Troops Passing Over Modder River by Train - A train, with locomotives and armoured cars at each end, passes over a temporary bridge erected over the Modder river; Seaforth Highlanders are riding in coal trucks and the train moves towards the camera. Date: 8 December 1899. Cameraman was John Benett-Stanford. Warwick Trading Company catalogue number 5525.

Do you know where during Boer War B.5 Armored Fowler Road Locomotive was used?




and

Simms Motor War Car? 

-- Edited by Gregorus on Thursday 30th of July 2009 09:21:29 AM

What about the Charon?

EARLY ARMOURED CARS
E. Bartholomew

...during the Boer War, the British Army sent armoured Fowler steam tractors to South Africa to protect supply columns from raiders. Steam tractors were too large and cumbersome to make effective fighting vehicles and the invention of the petrol engine provided a better, and relativelv cheap, source of power...



One of the Fowler B5 armoured traction engines hauling a 6 inch (150 mm) howitzer into a wagon. The Fowlers could puli two field guns andlhree infantry-carrying wagons. They were armoured, with plates up to 6 mm (0.24 inch) thick, by Charles Cammell and Company Limited.

and

...The military showed more interest in armoured cars in France, where a vehicle designed by the firm of Charron. Girardot et Voigt (CGV) was exhibited at a Paris motor show in 1902. The 40 horse-power   car   had   an   8   mm   Hotchkiss machinegun mounted in an armoured tub at the rear, but the driver and passenger were left in the open. It was tested by the French Army in 1902 and. although no further models of this type were built. CGV went on to produce the first fully enclosed armoured car. with a machinegun mounted in a revolving turret. The car weighed about 3 tons. was powered by a 30 horsepower engine and had a top speed of 28 mph (45 km/h). It had self-sealing tyres to minimise damage from shrapnel and bullets and carried steel channels which could be laid across trenches. Two prototypes were built and one tested by the Ministry of War in February 1906 gave a good performance, although fumes from the gun made conditions inside very uncomfortable. The test car was then sent to French Morocco and the other was sold to the Russian government, which ordered a further ten, slightly improved vehicles. In 1909 Hotchkiss produced  four armoured  cars  for the Turkish Army. These resembled the original CGV of 1902 but were based on more advanced touring cars...



The chain - driven Charron, Girardot et Voigt of 1902 had a Hotchkiss machinegun mounted on a central pivot. The gunners were safeguarded by a 7 mm (0.28 inch) thick armoured compartmenl and shield, but there was no cover for the driver and front-seat passenger.



For many years armoured car designers used the basie layoul established by the 1904 Charron, Girardol el Voigl. This prototype was lested by the French Army and similar models with 35 horsepower engines were sold to Russia. In I909 the German Army 'borrowed' two ofthe armoured cars which were en route across Europe and used them in their annual manoeuvres.


What you know about the CGV in French Morocco and Russia?

-- Edited by Gregorus on Sunday 2nd of August 2009 08:23:34 AM

Very good infomation Ivan!
Can you post the photos here?
BTW. I have a set of plan(3-view&cutaway) of Charron armored car with an unkown water-cooled machinegun(or automatic canno?), can anyone explain that?

This is CGV armoured car in Russia on a tests anno 1906. Only ONE CGV was in Russia. Constructed no from Nakashidze (Nakashidze was a Russian oficer and automobile-dealer - in Warshaw he have automobil-shop, hes partners was: CGV, Mutel, Panhard-Levassor, De Dion-Bouton) - hes constructor was a frenchman Guyet.

-- Edited by Ivan on Sunday 2nd of August 2009 08:30:42 PM

"In this time BUY Germans TWO cars with 40% discount, others comming back to France."

That makes more sense. It had crossed my mind that, in view of the international situation at the time, it would have been extremely provocative of Germany to confiscate armoured cars en route from France to Russia.

War Cars by David Fletcher has a bit of information on this. Just a quick speed read yields that 6 Fowler armoured road trains were made. 4 were sent to South Africa, and 2 remained in England. The 4 in South Africa, "were never used as intended and the plating was removed...".

The same source also states that during the Boer War, Pennington demonstrated an armoured car in Richmond Park (in London England), and an armoured rail car somewhere else in northern England. Simms also demonstrated an armoured car or two, and one was built by Vickers, Sons and Maxim in 1902. But it seems none of these went to war.

Does anyone have further infos on these early French armored cars? I found these on a Chinese forum, but the photos' captions are in French.
1918 AUTOMITRAILLEUSE VINOT-DEGUINGUAND:
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40631_3640631.jpg
1916 AUTOMITRAILLEUSE LATIL:
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40453_3640453.jpg
The caption: Automitrailleuse basée sur un châssis de tracteur d'artillerie. 4 exemplaires employés au Maroc en 1920
1916 AUTOMITRAILLEUSE DE DION BOUTON:
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40369_3640369.jpg
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40370_3640370.jpg
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40372_3640372.jpg
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40374_3640374.jpg
The caption: Proposé par la firme de Dion Bouton, l'engin dénommé "blockhaus mobile" n'est pas adopté.

Poids : 6,95t Vitesse : 45 km/h

Armement : 1 canon de 37mm et 1 mitrailleuse placés en opposition en tourelle
1915 AUTOMITRAILLEUSE ARCHER
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40311_3640311.jpg
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40313_3640313.jpg
The captions: Développé par J. Archer, un ingénieur civil, cette automitrailleuse possède un meilleur blindage que les autres modèles.

Une petite commande est passée en 1915 et les engins sont affectés à l'armée d'Orient.
1915 AUTOCANON RENAULT:
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40276_3640276.jpg
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40277_3640277.jpg
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40278_3640278.jpg
Basé sur un châssis de camion 2,5t Renault de 16cv, ces autocanons portent un canon Hotchkiss de 47mm TR semi automatique.
1915 AUTOMITRAILLEUSE GASNIER:
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40085_3640085.jpg
Prototype d'automitrailleuse équipée d'un moteur de 40cv et armée d'une mitrailleuse de 8mm
1914 AUTOMITRAILLEUSE PANHARD
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_40058_3640058.jpg
En 1911, plusieurs automitrailleuses non blindées sont commandées chez Panhard & Levassor et expédiées au Maroc. En août 1914, l'armée fait de nouvelles commandes. Un des exemplaires a été muni d'un blindage de fortune
1914 AUTOMITRAILLEUSE DE DION BOUTON
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_39964_3639964.jpg
En 1914, la firme propose un modèle de voiture blindée
1914 AUTOCANON PEUGEOT
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_39747_3639747.jpg
La construction de ces autocanons est improvisée en août 1914 sur des châssis de véhicules existants. Il en résulte des engins très divers et dans l'ensemble peu performants. La fabrication est arrêtée en décembre 1914.
1914 AUTOMITRAILLEUSE PEUGEOT
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_39385_3639385.jpg
http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_39384_3639384.jpg
Premier modèle. Blindage improvisé monté sur un châssis de voiture de tourisme.

Armement : 1 mitrailleuse de 8mm

http://pic.tiexue.net/pics/2006_9_23_39747_3639747.jpg

Does anyone have information concerning the converted Rolls Royce Silver Ghosts (not those used by the RNAC Division) and Peerless trucks that were used to protect RNAS airfields and rescue pilots in the Dunkirk area ca late 1914?

Bosun Al
afisherjr@aol.com

I have found this French site to be 'temperamental' in the past; maybe if you just keep trying to view it, periodically. It might just have been a temporary glitch?

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Sunday 9th of August 2009 06:14:44 PM

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Sunday 9th of August 2009 06:43:27 PM