Landships II

Bill sergant · Corporal

Minerva en Sava.

cdr · Lieutenant

if you do russia you'll need models of the mors. A French magazine recently had some plans (I think by Hubert Chance)

Bill sergant · Corporal

Thanks for you're reply!

Do you now maybe the name of the french magazine?

Greetz Nico.

Michael Taylor · Lieutenant-Colonel

You might try contacting M. Hubert Cance himself on his own website, where you can find samples of his work. smile

Bill sergant · Corporal

Ok thanks!

I just send the guy a mail...hope he can help me smile

I will let you...

Greetz Nico

cdr · Lieutenant

Just in case, the magazine was Batailles & Blind�s nr 18

Michel Boer · Brigadier

Here are a few pictures to start with.

Michel.

Ivan · Field Marshal

Michel Boer wrote:

Here are a few pictures to start with.

Michel.

Michel,

the last two phptos are from Russian front - it can not to be Minerva!!! In Russia have Belgians only Peugeot and Mors aroured cars - built 1915. The Mors ACV was with Minerva-Motor - Mors and Peugeot was very inentical - is it great problem exactly to say, who is Mors and who is Peugeot.

�

Michel Boer · Brigadier

no worries Ivan, I know they're Mors / Peugeot cars. it's just that my file names seem to have the wrong names...
Do you have any info as to what happened with these cars after the Belgians left them in Russia? There's plenty of info on the Belgians themselves who were evacuated through Siberia, Harbin, San Francisco, Niagara Falls and Paris (certainly a trip to remember!), but not much on their vehicles.

I've attached a text file with an article on the whole story, which I picked up somewhere on the net, so credits go to whoever wrote it.

Michel.

Ivan · Field Marshal

I'm no worry
�
Belgian�armoured�division�(division = batalion) - �under such name it appears in Russian documents, its official name�Le corps expeditionnaire Belge des autos-canons-mitrailleuses en Russie, has been generated in the spring of 1915 in Paris from the Belgian volunteers�of 350 persons. It were in the majority skilled officers and soldiers, participating in fights of 1914 in Flanders. By the commander major Auguste Collon has been appointed. The battalion had�13 armored cars of the French manufacture of marks "Peugeot" and "Mors" (on the last the Belgian engines of firm "Minerva" were established),�6�staff-cars and 20 lorries and 18 motorcycles. Belgians have arrived to Arkhangelsk on October, 13th, 1915 and in January, 1916 have gone on Southwest front where they have taken active part in fights, in which course some armored cars have been lost. The same year command of a battalion was accepted by major Hippolyte Semet. For replenishment of the left technics in 1916 from staff of Military automobile school it had been transferred two armored cars "Armstrong-Whitworth-Fiat" and "Izhorsky Renault" made under the project of V.A. Mgebroff. In August, 1917 major Semet has been ousted the commander of a battalion, captain Paul Roze has been appointed to its place.
All armored cars remained in Russia, but they have been worn strongly out also data on them in Russia after 1917 not found yet.

�

cdr · Lieutenant

A recent Belgian publication claims that one car was taken onboard the train and ended up in Harbin

Bill sergant · Corporal

That's also interisting, what happend with the cars after the war...

THanks also fot the photo's, mutch appriciated : )

I still have get no answer from Hubert...we still waiting.

Greetz Nico

cdr · Lieutenant

The first foto shows a Mors in training at Satory near Paris Note one of the partly armoured command cars in the background

Ivan · Field Marshal

Very-very good report abouth the history of Belgians in Russia. Wroten in Russian:

http://www.ostfront.ru/Text/Belgi.html

Date: Mar 1, 2010

More about the Belgian ACM-cars after the Belgian armoured unit (ACM) left Kiev by train (22.02.1918).�According to the memoires of�ACM- Belgians, they demolished their armoured cars (partly at least) in Kiev�before the departure. One armoured car - just the lower part of it & without the canon/machine gun) - was taken with them on the train.�After the war, the ACM-Belgians�stuck to the story that they had reduced their armoured cars�to scrap, in order to make them useless for the Bolsheviks. Now we know that this was more wishful thinking than reality. According to a reliable source, in casu a French revolutionary eye witness who�was fighting�in Ukraina during the Russian civil war, the Belgian armoured cars were repaired & used�in the spring of 1919 on the Ukrainian front by the Red forces against�Ukrainian nationalists & Whites.

More info in the book 'Reizigers door de Grote Oorlog - De odyssee van een Belgisch pantserkorps 1915-1918' (Davidsfonds, 2008, 324 p. & 120 photos) by A. Thiry. The book will be translated in Ukrainian & published in Kiev in September 2010.�

August Thiry��

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

Here is a good website about Minerva cars, including armoured ones and also about SAVA and Morse.

http://minervamotor-car.50megs.com/

Just be careful, there seems to be some kind of virus in this webiste!

The story of Minerva:

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Fighting_in_Flanders/Minerva.htm

This tells the story of Belgian Armoured Cars in Russia:

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Russia/Russia_00.htm

And another story of the same subject. I like this one:

/www.philatelicdatabase.com/postal-history/wwi-belgium-armoured-car-division-in-russia

Has anyone information of excact numbers of Belgian armoured cars? Best quesses seem to be 25-30 cars, including Mors and SAVA...

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

here two pictures from a magazine published in 1914.
A Minerva got over the Dutch border after the Antwerp retreat and was kept there, as was all war material and army personel of the belligerent countries. This according to the neutral status of Holland, a fact still leading to some discussion today...
Dutch military used the car (the first AC in Dutch service as a matter of fact) for patrol duties and gave it back to Belgium in 1919.
Some sources say that these Minerva's were improvised in a haste by Cockerill, but as one can see on these pictures there were too many to be "improvised", and all built in quite the same standard so that story might be not correct.
May be there is some confusion with the lieutenant Hencart story: a Belgian officer who apparently gave his two private Minerva's to the army, they had an improvised armoured body on them.
Some Minerva's made it to the eastern front anyhow, but in German hands. Two were active in Rumania in 1916 and two were on duty on the "Ostfront" in 1918, but I don't know the exact locations of these.
I'll try to post some more pictures later on,

regards, Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

a picture of major Collon, the first commander of the "Belgiski".
And a picture of a Minerva M 1914, with as I assume a driver with his canine comrade.

regards, Kieffer

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

Very nice photos indeed. Eight Minervas in one picture! Thanks.

I suppose these are the first improvised Minervas of Lieutenant Hencart. They look totally different. Perhaps there is Lt. Hencart himself on the middle of the picture taken behind the cars?

Does anyone have more information.

alfisherjr · Colonel

Kieffer's first photo shows numerous differences btwn the cars . . . could this be a result of improvisation during building or later modification?

Bosun Al

Bill sergant · Corporal

Ok, very usefull info biggrin

Thanks!

�

Greetz Nico.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

alfisherjr wrote:

Kieffer's first photo shows numerous differences btwn the cars . . . could this be a result of improvisation during building or later modification?

Bosun Al
Hi Alfisherjr, this we will probably never know exactly. There are two opinions on the matter, one goes for the improvisation, the other has its doubts. As these pictures are genuine from a 1914 printed newspaper/magazine, improvisations must have been made in a period of disorder and retreat, the Belgian army on its way back to the Yser. I don't know if Cockerill and others� had that much time and material at hand. Though there are some differences in detail, the basic structure was the same. As far as I know they all had a modified chassis with double wheels on the back- axle to carry the boiler plate armour. In 1916 they improved the M 1914 with an armoured deck and a hatch in the rear, calling these Model 1916. By the way, the Minerva's had a long career, in 1935 the last two ended their service in the Belgian army.
regards, Kieffer
�

�

cdr · Lieutenant

The minerva that ended up in holland is probably the one that was used by the forces (garde civique, volunteers and gendarmerie) of general De Schepper in mid oktober 1914 in Belgian Limburg (battle of the convent of Achel (Achelse Kluis)

Carl

28juni14 · Hero

... and another Sava�photo to furher help this story line....

-- Edited by 28juni14 on Saturday 3rd of July 2010 05:58:40 PM

-- Edited by 28juni14 on Saturday 3rd of July 2010 06:00:42 PM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

cdr wrote:

The minerva that ended up in holland is probably the one that was used by the forces (garde civique, volunteers and gendarmerie) of general De Schepper in mid oktober 1914 in Belgian Limburg (battle of the convent of Achel (Achelse Kluis)

Carl
Hi Carl, you're better informed than I am, no doubt about your expertise! I read somewhere that this Minerva passed the border in Flanders, known to you of course as Zeeuws Vlaanderen. (For foreign people: the Dutch part of Flanders, the south bank of the Scheld river). That should have been in october '14 too. But possibly that source isn't accurate.
Kieffer

�

gemsco · Captain

Neither the Minerva armoured car , nor the SAVA, took part in the Russian trip from the Belgian�Corps des Autos-canons-Mitrailleuses.

Their armoured cars were based on Mors and Peugeot chassis.

Regards

Gemsco

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

just to bring the spirit back on this topic: another Minerva picture.
I don't know where it is taken. Please comment on the details of the uniforms, the car!

regards, Kieffer

gemsco · Captain

Another of several well-known pics of the Minerva Armored cars. This one is taken during the early months of the war in 1914. Outfit looks like the one of the "Carabiniers". All servants were volunteers and came from all horizons. It took untill 1916 to straightline their organization .

These cars were assembled in the Minerva works at Antwerp, hence their publicity caption.

I am in the process of editing a monography on all Belgian armored car of WW1 and welcome all information andf pics on the subject.

gemsco

gemsco · Captain

Ivan,

Could you help about the�departure of the Belgian Expeditionnary Corps from Galicia.

I read in a book about the French Communist Party, that a few Belgians did not return. They stood in place ( Please select : because they were convinced by the Bolchevik doctrine/because the were attracted by some Ukrainian girls ?).

Thanks to a certain "Podvo�ski" (of the War Department) a group of armoured car was then formed on the Ukranian front, with a few Belgian in it.

Could you confirm ?

Thanks

Gemsco

kieffer · Commander in Chief

-- Edited by kieffer on Tuesday 28th of September 2010 08:40:51 AM

Ivan · Field Marshal

Gemsco,

you can here:
http://1914.borda.ru/?1-7-0-00000045-000-10001-0-1291073641
with Ukrainian historiks-men contacts - this men know all uner belgian kamerads.
This forum need no registration, people speek a little bad english. This is a topics with Belgians armoured division.

gemsco · Captain

Ivan,

To differentiate between the Mors and the Peugeot, look to the top part of the engine bonnet :
The top part of the bonnet of the Mors is horizontal; its equivalent with the Peugeot is slightly inclined, starting higher on the driver panel. Otherwise, everything else is the same, apart from the engine and the chassis.

regards

gemsco

gemsco · Captain

A 5 pages article on the 1914 SAVA is due to be published early 2011 by the Society of friends of the Military Museum of Belgium (SRAMA).

If you want to receive a copy send your postal adress to :
gemsco
C/O SRAMA
Mus�e Royal de l'Arm�e
Parc Cinquantenaire 3
1000 Bruxelles
Belgique