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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Armoured Cars & other AFV's -> Need to ID ACs in Mexican revolution.
Post Info TOPIC: Need to ID ACs in Mexican revolution.
Woof Woof


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Need to ID ACs in Mexican revolution.
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Hi  everybody,

Found this :http://archives.tamuk.edu/new/Don_Bryan_2c.htm#

Those first row vehicles look like Fords with gun shields, but what's the AC that's following?

If you scroll down the "c" line of pictures,  there's some more american built ACs.

Cheers &
Woof woof.smile


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Woof Woof


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Sorry, forgot to tell.
I'm talking about the picture right before the last one, bottom row.

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philthydirtyanimal


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According to Crismon, in U.S. Military Wheeled Vehicles, the front row are not Fords with gun shields but Studebaker-Crossman machine gun cars. The armoured car in the middle is an armoured Ford Model T. The photograph is of a parade in El Paso, Texas, USA, 6th March 1917. 'It is not known what unit owned the car, or whether it saw extensive service' (Crismon, 1983).

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Woof Woof


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Thanks Philthydirtyanimal.

If you go down to the pics on "12d", last row, second from right, is that also a Studebaker-Crossman machine gun car?

And one more request, any clearer pics someone might have of that armored Ford.

Cheers, to all.

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philthydirtyanimal


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Last row, 2nd from LEFT is a Studebaker-Crossman (captioned on the photograph as 'Machine Gun Truck', and underneath the photo it says, 'Machine Gun Truck - A2000-071-316Image 29 of 34'), according to Crismon, 1983. Photos on the right are a truck and a motorcycle sidecar combination.

Crismon describes the photo of the Ford Armoured Car as, 'A rare photograph of a very rare vehicle'.

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Woof Woof


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Disorientated there for a while confuse, sorry for that mate...right!biggrin

Thanks again for clearing things out, pitty there are no other pics of that rare Ford.

Cheers.



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Anonymous

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Gentlemen

Hello, I have been following this with keen interest.  American Armored Cars are of a particular interest to me as well as early American Tank designs. Unfortunately Mr. Crismon who I have immense respect for has made an error.  The Armored Car in question is not a Ford, although it is flanked by Ford Model Ts (Used extensively by the U.S.Army in Mexico and Europe) No information has ever been unearthed to proof the theory that the Army or Marines ever experimented with the Ford as an armored vehicle. (Of course we are speaking of 1914-1918). The Armored Car in question is in fact a Reo Model F. Armored Car. Used by the Michigan National Guard. It took place in a few parades, and has seemed to have disappear from site. No combat records have turned up, patents or very many photos.

Attached are also a few photos of the Studebaker-Crossman.

Good luck with your research.

All the Best

Tim R.



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Tim R


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Gentlemen

Hello, I have been following this with keen interest.  American Armored Cars are of a particular interest to me as well as early American Tank designs. Unfortunately Mr. Crismon who I have immense respect for has made an error.  The Armored Car in question is not a Ford, although it is flanked by Ford Model Ts (Used extensively by the U.S.Army in Mexico and Europe) No information has ever been unearthed to proof the theory that the Army or Marines ever experimented with the Ford as an armored vehicle. (Of course we are speaking of 1914-1918). The Armored Car in question is in fact a Reo Model F. Armored Car. Used by the Michigan National Guard. It took place in a few parades, and has seemed to have disappeard from site. No combat records have turned up, patents or very many photos.

Attached are also a few photos of the Studebaker-Crossman.

Good luck with your research.

All the Best

Tim R.



-- Edited by Tim R on Sunday 23rd of August 2009 10:19:01 PM

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Woof Woof


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Tim R

Great info and finally a better pic of the Reo mod.F AC.
Thank you very much.

Allow me one last request, did the rebel mexican forces use any ACs or any other kind of vehicles?

All the pics I come across shows them only on horseback. Now I know they had a few planes..., they must've had some sort of modern transportation.

Woof woof




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philthydirtyanimal


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Woof Woof, the photo of the REO is also from Crismon's book. You can find it on ebay quite often.

There are some more photos of that part of the world, from that time, in the Robert Runyon collection;

http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/bio.html

I haven't seen any Mexican armoured cars that were used against the Americans. But you could probably find photos of ordinary cars loaded with armed men and maybe armed women too.

Try searching in Spanish, on Mexican sites or on ebay, there are a large number of photos showing the Mexican forces. Pancho Villa was a bit of a 'show off', amongst other things, and loved having his photo taken.

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Tim R


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Gentlemen

Yes there were a few Armored Cars used by Villa, however most vehicles were ordinary unarmored cars of the period.

    As philthydirtyanimal explained, most were loaded with men and women of the Constitucionalista. A few cars have been noted to have been improvised with mild steel plates as those used in the early part of the First World War by Belgium.

One notable Armored Car used by Villa was built in 1914 on a Standard truck chassis, designed with steel wheels so as too be able to run on rails, it could also be adapted to run on land as well. It is reported to have been driven by two Americans. Some sources state the vehicle had a mounting for a machine gun, but it was never seen or photographed in this configuration. It was supplied with at least six firing slits for riflemen. Ejercito Constitucionalista Division de Lagvna Brigada Zaragosa Constitutionalist Army Brigade Division Lagvna Zaragosa was painted prominently on each side, as you can see by the photos. It is also rumored to have been designed by Villa himself, and built in a foundry in El Paso.

Also according to a lot of first had accounts, and war memoirs, the Constitutionalist armed a truck (Type Unknown) with an armored shield and an old Federalist Gatling gun. What a site that must have been, unfortunately no photo exists.

The Federalist was also equipped in 1907 with improvised armored cars, consisting of mild steel plates, (Gun Shield Only) with French made Hotchkiss machine guns. Later the American Government shipped 4 Maxwell Cars fitted with Colt Machine guns, and a large extra tank for hauling water. This was located in the rear of the vehicle, as the rear seat was removed.

A few Cadillacs were also likewise sent to the aid of the Federalist armed like the Maxwells for there continuing threat of the Yaqui Indians, as well as the growing unrest of the Constitutionalist

The Federalist also acquired 2 Italian Isotta armored cars, in the style of the open toped versions used in the Italo-Turkish War.

It is widely noted and accepted by the Historian of this period, that the Villistas (Constitutionalist) army used heavy assault shields (escudos de as alto) as a rudimentary means of armor protection. Those used in the early part of the afore mentioned War bare resemblance to those used by the Villistas and Federalist. They were of a V shape, and mounted on wagon wheels, with handles on each side, and rifle slits. (I can provide drawings and photos if required)

Also both sides made extensive use of armored trains, mostly armored train cars, with a wide variety of shapes and sizes. They were a mixture of artillery wagons and troop transports. The Mexican government had a few, mostly improvised. The Constitutionalist had a few; they were improvised, and stolen from the Federalist. The U.S.Army experimented widely in this area, fielding quite an array of different styles. (Information if interested can be supplied)

I have also provided you with a few photos showing the Ford M. T (Truck) in use by the U.S. Army specifically the 1st Machine Gun Company of the Kentucky Infantry. Each vehicle was outfitted with a Lewis light machine gun mounted on the hood.

 

I hope this information is helpful.

All the Best

Tim R.

 



-- Edited by Tim R on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 01:44:27 AM

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Woof Woof


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Tim R

Your help has been much appreciated.

Those pics are totally new to me. I like the new livery on the AC, its more...mexican! More like going to a fiesta instead of war.
All make interesting modeling subjects.

Ofcourse I'm interested in that extra information and pics, that you wish to supply.(assault shields, armored trains etc.)

thanks in advance
and all the best.

Woof




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Woof Woof


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Hi again

A friend supplied me with a xerox copy of an article , but without further information on the source.
Its sighned by R. Munson and titled "early mexican armor".

I've enclosed a pic of what looks like the makeshift armored shields used during the revolution. Sorry about the quality.

No luck yet on the armored train wagons. All that I found shows them as troop and weapon carriers.

Woof Woof.

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oirob


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another AC in Mexico, photo dated 1914:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jmY_VF3FxPg/TBGaIzAz29I/AAAAAAAABns/xx6iNh5Ug4c/s1600/brehme+buenavista.jpg

http://fotografosdelarevolucion.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2010-10-03T10%3A47%3A00-07%3A00

ID?

-- Edited by oirob on Thursday 18th of November 2010 12:20:54 PM

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